I guess Poles are just a lot more resistant and defiant by nature, and persist in being religious despite persecution. The Czechs? Probably didn't care that much.
The Poles did not have so much problems with the catholic church in their past. The common problem were the attempts of the Holy Roman Empire to absorb or at least subdue both the Czech lands and Poland, but the religion was much more used as an instrument of subduction of the Czech lands. We were closer to the Empire (well, we were part of it) so there was virtually no need of higher clerical offices because they were in near cities of Germany. The Poland had its archbishop round the year 1000, the Czech lands about 300 years later. Not that the Poles did not have any problem with the Empire... look at their relations to Germany today. Later, the Czech lands were full of protestants and they were continually prosecuted by the catholic church (which is not the case of Poland which did not like the protestants as well because for example the protestant Swedish were their enemies) which was an istrument of integration to the Habsburg empire (the Poland was independent power, although falling and diminishing under continuous raids of the Prussians - protestants; Austrians - catholics; and Russians - orthodox - neither of which used the religion as an integrationist instrument) This is another key moment because the Habsburg throne was intimately connected with the catholic religion. After its fall, there was a grand movement originating from the first president Masaryk - Pryč od Říma (Away from Rome), because the Rome was deeply connected to the Austrian empire, they blessed their troops marching to the War against the allies. Masaryk wanted Czechoslovakia to get rid off all Austrian, which was also the catholicism. During the Nazi era, the religion did not matter much and after that... you can imagine that the communists did not have anything against the doctrine "away from Rome"...
OK, so how much affect did Communism have on Czech religion? (I think Czechs were 67-75% "Catholic" before Communism came over.) Communism restricted religion....did this contribute outright to atheism? Some religions thrive under persecution, but some religions fade away under pressure.
The religiosity did decrease during the 40 years of communism, but it was rather because of the 40 years than because of the communism. It was a demografic process which came in effect in the communistic era, but originated mostly in the era of the First Republic. Communists were conscious of this process, their strategy was the waiting. Of course, you can find a lot of information about persecution of believers during the communism, but paying careful attention to the problem, you can find it was a “war” with the church, not with the religion. That seems be incorrect, or maybe using a different methodology. The modern data about religiosity come from public polls - a random sample of Czechs answer to the question “What’s your religious belief?”. The old data are most likely based on the administrative records (of the church?) and reflect rather something like the number of christened people which is definitely different from the number of believers.
And today, there is always the problem with the people not knowing the distinction between atheism (denying of anything of God and religion) and agnosticism (not denying but also not embracing). We are not the most atheit country in the world. We are probably not even the most agnostic country. The atheism comes from the fact that many people do not distinguish between those two degrees and also because many people do not know that atheism is actually the denying of anything supernatural or they do not know the right word for that (the agnosticism) and use the closest one they know (the atheism). And upon this nation-wide ignorance the statistics of or religious beliefs are founded... :evil:
Actually, I know what the difference between an atheist and an agnostic is and so does the website where I found the info. Go ahead and check it out hourself; it is at http://atheism.about.com/b/a/009710.htm.
The Habsburg period of time, and also the whole Protestant Reformation deal, has me confused a tad. Will some kind soul please tell me what effect that the Habsburg period and the Reformation had on Czech religion.? :wink:
Well, that is not easy to describe. The Habsburg period - that’s cca 400 years of very complicated history. The Reformation in the Czech lands did start hundred years before the Reformation in the other European countries. That made the history even more complicated. And the disputes with the Rome, that’s nearly an invariant of the whole Czech history (= more than eleven centuries). You can read about the Czech history in the History Section of MyCzechRepublic or on Wikipedia, esp. the 1526-1648 part (pro-catholic biased from the Czech perspective, btw) could make you understand the Czech attitude to Habsburgs and Catholicism.
What people experience in USA, if they have atheist stickers on their cars. http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=98577
Eso, it seems to me when reading it that there were only a few events of a person actually damaging the car and they don't even know if it was for the reason of the bumper sticker. I've also gotten fists shaken at me while driving and I can think that it may have been for the pro-Bush sticker, but I can’t know this. It’s true that Americans may be open with their feelings/views, but it’s from both sides, not just the Christian right. What did appear evident on this site is the strong animosity toward Christians from that group of people. It seems to me they are asking for one to respect their right to disbelieve, but their animosity toward believers demonstrates a failure to respect one's right to believe. Unfortunately, there is this ideal out there that believers are these cruel & judgmental people out to destroy all non-believers. Although that may be true for a few crazy people, it’s definitely not the norm for Christians; most of us simply carry our own beliefs and show respect to those who carry a dissenting belief. I’d like to share with you another perspective since, through your previous posts, you appear as the type of person who seeks both sides of the story. The social climate of the USA is getting more and more secular and it's the believers who are loosing rights. In many places of work or schools, believers are not allowed to form prayer groups as the non-believers say it will offend them to see someone pray. Believers aren’t allowed to even wear a cross or display a bible or cross in their work area as it will offend a non-believer to see someone else with a cross. Pictures of historical figures are permitted EXCEPT pictures of Jesus as it is offensive to someone to see his face. These believers aren’t trying to push their religion on others; they are simply trying to practice it. The constitution NEVER states a separation of church and state, but only PROHIBITS THE GOVERNMENT from suppressing religion. However, there are many groups who are actively trying to suppress the believer’s freedoms. I read of an incident in a US town where Jewish believers were banned from gathering together in their own home for prayer because the town ordinance decided it was “gathering without a permit”. Yet, those who wanted to gather just to play board games or watch football were not banned. I understand that you think the climate in the USA is “overly religious” compared to Europe, but according to our Constitution, the USA is suppose to carry a climate where we can each hold AND express our own beliefs while respecting everyone’s right to do the same. Unfortunately, some groups are using the courts to unconstitutionally silence the rights of believers while cheerfully and openly basking in their right to display their disbelief. I say let them have the bumper stickers; let them display disbelief all they want; let them gather together in their non-prayer groups to happily share stories of disbelief. I don’t care. Just let the believers have same freedoms.
And I never said that they have only negative experience. I can assure you that all these things are very crazy from Czech point of view, but I think it's no because climate is becoming secular, I see it more like new religion of political correctnes. Because these restrictions don't concern only religious things. BTW - I heard that even word Christmas could be banned?! I hope we Czechs don't end like that From here it seems that too many Americans try to control their fellow citizens (and not only them) and want to instruct them in what they should believe, who they should have sex with or what life they should live.
I know, I know. I exaggarate and ranting. I guess it's because I lately kept track on US presidential campaign and it have negative effects on me
Unfortunately, all too true. As for me, I try to practice "laissez faire" - at least until someone steps on my toes.
A lot of believers think that all non-believers are out to destroy all religion as well, which is of course nonsense.
And unfortunately, they use the government to do so. Too many people are trying to make a law against whatever they find offensive. It has it's negative effects on all of us. I'm sorry I know you didn't say it. I assumed you were implying it but I shouldn't have assumed that. Máš pravdu Yes, it's a struggle over here. Government buildings have banned the use of the word. Also, private agencies that receive any kind of government funds through grants, etc. are dealing with the battle over permission to use the word. It's completely ridiculous. Then on the capitalist side, there is also a struggle. Stores are choosing not to use the word as not to offend non-Christians. Then Christians get offended and choose not to shop at that store. So money is going to determine who wins that battle. If the stores loose enough money by offending Christians, they will choose to use the word or vise versa. I'm sure it makes Americans look like crazy idiots to the rest of the world. yes it's nonsense to think that ALL nonbelievers are out to destroy all religion. However, one cannot deny that SOME nonbelievers are out to destroy the rights of believers. I've found that our Czech non-believing friends are very encouraging toward our belief. Anytime they find something Christian at a garage sale, they buy it for me. :lol: And we were given several crucifixes as wedding gifts. It's very sweet.
There are may people who are "Christians", and follow Jesus life and teachings, but ultimately know little about Him. That's the "faith without proof" you mentioned in one of your posts. I call it "Blind Faith". I don't like it myself. What's curious is that Jesus never encouaged blind faith. He gave evidence as to His claims. Jesus made the claim that he was actually God in human form. He gave evidence of this by healing the sick, raising the dead back to life, he changed the weather twice, walked on water, and other things. The religious leaders of his day hated and apposed Jesus, because he threatened their grasp on power. They kept demanding proof, but continued to ignore all of his miracles. I love Jesus story of Jesus too. He sort of launched a spiritual version of the Velvet Revolution. He never raised a weapon, but his work on earth changed all societies forever. Adam www.sharethecrown.com
I've been reading through this thread, I still need to digest a lot. A couple of things that I have observed. There appears to be an 'anti-Catholism" present in many posts, even to the point where it was mentioned with Nazi & Communism. The other Christian Religions appear to be against us also. Don't worry, I'm not all knotted up over that. :wink: I would appreciate a little step back, take a breath, and reassess your feeling towards us Catholics. All religions that follow Christ as the savior and redeemer, are Christian. I know this is a no brainer but I feel this needs to be brought out. Every Christian Religion; Baptist to Born Again has it's foundation in Catholism. I often wonder why people do not apply the same logic that they use for thier ancestrial roots to thier religious path. There are many people with Czech backgrounds here that would never dream of talking bad about the Czechs. No country's history is clean yet past history of the Catholic church is used against modern Catholics. Discussion based on prejudice, isn't a discussion. It is an attempt to justify your feelings by getting others to agree with what you are posting. Interesting how one poster stated that if they spoke thier native language, they would be arrested. When asked to expand on this, it was found out that this occurred back in the 20s' & 30s'. Not today as it appeared when originally posted. I ask that to the people that have problems with the Catholic Church, don't use the Reformation as your reason, get to know the church today and then post non prejudiced views and or opinions. As I said earlier, I'm not knotted up about this, this is human nature at its core. :wink: To the people living in the Czech Lands; Everytime that I go there and go to church, the services are very well attended. Not just tourist in Praha, but in small towns like Cheb. This has been my experience. You may want to attend a couple Catholic services to get a more accurate assessment. Polls do not always reflect reality on the ground. Without a congregation, churches go away for there is no funds to maintain the church. In the military there is a saying that there are no athiest in foxholes. I think this may apply to the Czech Lands also. It would be interesting to see who and when people are baptized there. My wife was baptized in a Protestant Church...in secret in 72. the 180 degree turn from Communism with a face had occurred in August of 68. My mother-in-law has said that 72 were very bleak times. My brother-in-law was born in 79, things were looking up compared to 72, he was not baptized. Since we were not married in church, my marriage is not accepted by the church. I still go every week, but I promised my wife that I would never force her or our children to become Catholic, or for that matter any religion. I kept my promise, our son was diagnosed with leukemia last September.....we are in a foxhole and she requested that he be baptized. This is human nature, I don't think it is done as an insurance policy, I think deep down people just need this. As for the non Christians not being accepted in heaven, to this I say. Jesus taught to love thy enemy, turn the other cheek and so on; basically be good to one another. I don't believe that God would require people to be part of a religion or group in order to be welcomed in heaven. Good people, no matter what thier belief's are go to heaven.
I'm sorry to hear about your son's illness. I pray that not only your son is able to find God's healing but that you and your family are given strength and comfort to deal with this present suffering.
