Bible and Religion

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Halef, Apr 18, 2005.

  1. idemtidem

    idemtidem Well-Known Member

    Is that really a valid question though? Not that I agree with hint, but proving love would be comparable with proving people's belief in a god, not proving god's existence.
  2. Bret

    Bret Active Member

    Sure its a valid question. Most people who do not believe in God cite the fact that his extistence can't be proven. Love can't be proven either but lot's of people believe in love, get married, etc.

    I believe in God and recognize that I can't prove his existence. That's why its called faith. It takes the same kind of faith to trust someone with your heart. I think it is a good analogy.
  3. idemtidem

    idemtidem Well-Known Member

    Oh, I totally agree with what you say concerning the belief in a god. What I'm trying to say, however, is that love is intangible just like the belief in any god is. Just like faith, name it. Any god, on the other hand, is not a feeling (or so it appears to be presented) but something that's on the other side of the equation - you feel love, sympathy towards something or someone and that could include a god. I guess that's why I didn't think it was a truly valid analogy. I see what you're saying though!
  4. Bret

    Bret Active Member

    No problem. Everybody has to make a choice concercerning what they believe in or stand for, I made mine and I respect everyone else's right to make their own choices, whether or not I believe they are right or not.

    As for God being on the other side of the equation, I can see that. God is on the other side of the equation, just like your husband or wife is. Love=faith in the equation I guess. Same principle, so I can dig it. :lol:
  5. ursula

    ursula Well-Known Member

    but i do know that love exists, firsthand. i dont know that religion exists. dont expect me to do a phylosophcal dissection of either one. im not in the mood
  6. Bret

    Bret Active Member

    I know your not in the mood, but you opened the door.... :wink:

    First, God and religion are two different things. Religion is of man, thus flawed. God is flawless. That is just a distinction that needs to be made.

    As for the existence of love, You know love exists because you can see the results. You can't touch, taste, or put love in a box and save it, so how do you really know it exists? Because you see the results of love.

    I know God exists because I can see his results. That's all I want to say and I hope I didn't spoil your mood :lol:
  7. ursula

    ursula Well-Known Member

    hi again bret
    i do realize that 'god' is different from 'religion'. but i still dont believe. what about the people that have gotten hurt/killed through the ages, the ones the tsunami killed in asia. i have never gotten a satisfactory answer to that. only that god had areason for it, give me a break. when genghis khan put entire cities to the sword!! the children that are hurt neglected. i think its all propaganda. started by the catholic church, the protestants jumped on the bandwagon as soon as they could and lets not forget about the evangelicals. and the stance of the catholic church concerning women. dont get me started. i am incabable of believing anything without some shred of proof.
  8. Bret

    Bret Active Member


    I don't want to respond to this post in a hasty manner. You have posed some good questions. I will admit that I don't have all the answers (yet it believe). Much of what you speak about is the result of men. The crusades, the spanish inquisition, etc. are examples of how men completely misuse religion and the Bible. Man is imperfect and screws things up from time to time. I certainly don't want to be hypocritical, because every Christian (myself included) fails in some way, which causes others to question faith in God. As for atrocities commited by man, we live in a fallen world. God allows us to make decisions, bood or bad. Those decisions have consequences for the person making the decision and those affected by them. Sept. 11, 2001 is an example. Terrorists made the decision to strike, and thousands of innocent people died. Why? Because God gives us free will and it has consequences.

    As for natural disasters are harder to understand. I don't know why mudslides, huricanes, tornados, avalanches, etc. kill innocent people. I don't know why God allows that to happen. That one is hard to swallow sometimes, so I understand why you struggle with accepting it. However, I have accepted the fact that I can't understand everything in God's plan. I will look into this a little more and get back to you on it.

    As for the catholic church's stance on women, I'm not catholic so I can't really speak about it authoritatively. I do know that many protestant denominations view the woman's role in the church as secondary to the man's. While this may seem archaic, it is Biblical. The leader of the church (body of Christ) is to be a man. This does not mean that women should be demeaned or not valued. It is just that their role is different, just as the roles of fathers and mothers are different. I know that will probably stir you up, but that is a stance that Baptists and Catholics alike share.

    At any rate, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about God with you. I am an evangelical, but I'm not some fanatic or zealot. However, my beliefs are firm and I take my role seriously. I enjoy respectfully discussing people's beliefs not in an attempt to win, but just to educate people so that they can make informed decisions. That's why I even discovered this message board. I started frequenting it last year in preparation for a mission trip to the CZ.

    Take care Ursula.
  9. czechchris

    czechchris Well-Known Member

    I like your signature, Ursula. It's good to give credit to the Creator for the good things he has done. All too often he only gets the blame for the evils done by humans to each other.

    If there were no God, I would fear for the future. Man's whole efforts seem to be for self-annihilation. If I had to rely on human efforts to bring peace and security to all would really fill me with despair. Even when treaties are agreed, there is always the greed of humans that gets in the way of progress. (Kyoto e.g.)

    Remember, too, that if God were to prevent evils on the earth, there are those who would resent his interference in their so-called "freedom". To prevent many unborn babies being aborted and the spread of sexually-transmitted diseases such as aids, gonorrhea, and chlamydia, would you accept that God has the right to restrict sexual relations to one partner in a long-term relationship - i.e. marriage. Many would regard that as an infringement on their personal freedom.

    Just as there are many things we believe in which are unseen (radio waves etc) and the existence of which we do not doubt, because we see the effects they produce, in a similar way I believe in the existence of God because of the things he has produced, the physical creation around us.
  10. anu

    anu Well-Known Member

    i don't understand how one can believe in jesus christ but not in human beings. things don't get better because no one believes they could change, because everyone sees mainly the bad evil side of men. instead of trusting in god, you should trust in people. jesus christ at least did so... !
  11. Bret

    Bret Active Member

    Jesus was God incarnate-God on earth. He was fully man-yet fully God. Capable of sinning, yet he never succumbed. So faith in Jesus is a little different than having faith in man. Jesus was no ordinary man. Trusting people instead of God will lead to innumerable disappointments because of our nature.
  12. anu

    anu Well-Known Member

    our nature is neither bad nor good, it's a mix and capable of both, good and bad acts. i find it sad, that the thing christians remembers most of jesus is that he died on a cross and is said to have risen from the dead, while they seem to "forget" the things he said and did.

    he had faith in people, hadn't he?! (more than you, bret, i'd say :wink: )
  13. Bret

    Bret Active Member

    I never said that people are incapable of good things, but our nature is imperfect. Do you have to teach children to be selfish, throw temper tantrums, etc. Nope, its inate. I agree that too many people honor Jesus with words rather than actions and don't apply his teachings. Faith without works is useless.

    As for faith in people, Jesus' faith was in the Father. He never relied on people for his strength or faith. He quoted scripture in the desert when Satan tempted him and prayed to God in the Garden of Gethsemene before he was arrested. His life was marked by great interactions with people, but his faith was not in people, but in God the Father.
  14. czechchris

    czechchris Well-Known Member

    While it is true that the potential for good and for evil is present in us, the tendency is for humans to do what is wrong. The Bible explains that this is a consequence of the actions of our first parents. It is something we have no control over. It could be likened to the effect of a child being born with aids because of the immorality, or drug abuse of the parent. The child is not responsible for the problem, but suffers the consequences of it.
    We are all in that situation. The death of Jesus was a legal transaction in which he paid the penalty for our sin, making it possible for us to return to the perfection that our first parents had, and that we should have inherited.

    Jesus did not have faith in people's ability bring about true justice on the earth. Indeed, he taught us to pray that God's will be done on the earth, and for God's Kingdom to come to bring that about. He knew that only the Kingdom would accomplish these things. He spent his ministry teaching about the Kingdom and what it would do, and encouraging people to put faith in that Kingdom, and in the meantime try their best to live as God says we should.

    But when God says "Do not kill" and people do kill (even those who profess to be Christian), who is to blame? God or the individual? When God says "do not commit fornication" but people do commit fornication, and suffer the consequences, who is to blame?
    If everyone followed God's command not to kill, would there be war? Of course not.
  15. ursula

    ursula Well-Known Member

    you all are asking for it, bringing the concept of orginal sin up. are you sure none of you belong to 'opus dei'? not bret hes a baptist. if someone stuck me in paradise he should ezpect me to be curious, its in human nature. without that wed still be in the stoneage, without fire at that. curiosity and diversity are what makes us different.
    damn tooting id have checked out the apple, even so im leery of snakes. so lets agree to disagree. if i look at jerry falwell im embarassed to be in the same state with him.
  16. czechchris

    czechchris Well-Known Member

    Not a difficult command.
    "Eat anything you like, but if you eat that fruit, you will die."

    You might tell your own children the same thing. Eat anything in the garden, but not the berries on the yew tree, you'll die.

    Do you expect them to be curious and try it? or do what you say?
  17. idemtidem

    idemtidem Well-Known Member

    Just a question - why didn't they die then?

    I think that the beginning of Bible is taken a little too literally. Why can't it be understood in a more metaphorical sense? It's not like there's not a proof that humans were not created out of dust in the ground.
  18. anu

    anu Well-Known Member

    hm... i agree with you, bret and czechchris, that it is not god's fault if people kill each other etc.
    but while talking about human nature you should not take children as example - if you wanted to speak about dog's nature, you wouldn't observe the behavior of puppies. a child doesn't have selfconsciousness, it also hasnot yet developped empathy - but these are typical human characteristics.
    then you should not forget that greed, egoism, violence etc. are encouraged by our society - it's not (only) about nature. to say it is is just a lame excuse in my eyes.

    of course, the whole thing is basic. i do agree with idemtidem; for me, the bible is a historical source like - lets say - homer's work. nothing done by people can be absolutely right and true... so it's always difficult to discuss with people who believe in every word that's written in the bible!
  19. Silatsiaq

    Silatsiaq Member

    Last week I was discussing with a very believing and very convinced catholic man who was saying that nothing that we do on earth does not mather. If we believe in God and Jesus Christ we are saved, if not we go to hell.

    Is'n it precisely this kind of ideas that are causing many troubles on this earth? That for many people something unknown and unprovable is justifying basically anything...

    You can believe in God or Allah or Krishna or The-Great-Turtle-Who-Created-the-World, it does not matter for me, I will interact with you according to your acts. And respect my opinions, I will respect yours.
  20. idemtidem

    idemtidem Well-Known Member

    Those are my thoughts. I've seen too many people hiding behind their christian faith (I'm sure christians are not the only believers that behave that way). They pick certain moral rules from their religion they favor, then demand that other people follow those, while totally ignoring the moral rules they do not like :roll: That's just not right. A believer to me would be a person that really tries hard to do what his/her religion considers to be moral. Not a person who simply does what seems easier at the time or what they find preferable...and sadly, most people fail into this category.

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