can someone look at this ...

Discussion in 'Vocabulary & Translation Help' started by Eric79PL, Nov 6, 2009.

  1. Eric79PL

    Eric79PL Member


    which one is the best way to write it and I'm not too sure about " ty tvoje nové fotky "

    Děkuji Vám za pomoc :)

    oh yeah before I forget : was does neboť means ? I looked it up and it gave me the word because. Gee I thought it was slang for Nebo :roll: So when do I use neboť instead of protože
  2. Alexx

    Alexx Well-Known Member

    Both versions are possible, there is no big difference.

    I would say "krásné" or "pěkné" (which is standard czech), however "-ý" ending is common and colloquial (fotka is feminine gender, pattern "žena"; krásný (krásná, krásné) is patter mladý (mladá, mladé). Best way to write it is with "-é" no matter which one of those sentences you choose, and no matter what you might here on streets :).

    in this context:

    výžně = really
    moc = very

    "ty tvoje nové fotky" is perfectly OK

    I have never thought about it, but for me "neboť" = "protože", neboť being a slightly bookish. Protože returned four times more results in google search.
  3. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    Saying it's common and colloquial can be a bit confusing.
    Maybe common (for some people, other people are disgusted when they hear it), maybe colloquial, but in the first row it's wrong. :wink:

    Koukám na ty tvoje/tvé nové fotky a jsou vážně krásné.
    Koukám na ty tvoje/tvé nové fotky a jsou moc pěkné.

    The first sentence sounds a bit stronger.
    Also the meaning can be slightly different, the second version can be used always, but in some situations the first one would sound strange. It's a strong expression of loveliness, I would personaly use it only for photos with something nice on them (flowers, children, puppies etc.) or for really artistic photos.
  4. ondras

    ondras Member

    It might be wrong but it is still the ending that is preferred by the most people in the Czech Rep. Even Google returns three times more results for "kresny fotky" than for "krasne fotky".

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say he should use the "-ý" ending, I'm just trying to say that correcting such mistakes is in my opinion rather meaningless. Most of the people who are trying to learn Czech here are doing so because they want to communicate more efficiently with their families and friends and they will probably never be in a situation where the knowledge of the proper standard Czech is required. Not to mention that even many of the native speakers can't use the standard Czech properly (I have to admit that I'm one of them).

    btw. Using Czech idiomatic expressions in English is in my opinion far worse ;). It took me a while to decipher what you meant by "in the first row" :).
  5. Ctyri koruny

    Ctyri koruny Well-Known Member

    I've never heard "in the first row" before.

    As a learner I would prefer to be told about the mistakes, and that they are used colloquially, because if I sit an exam or have to write an essay in the future I will need to know the difference between standard written and spoken Czech.

    It's the same when I teach English, I tell the students what they will hear on the street, just so they'll understand it, but learning every colloquial variant is a lot harder than just learning one standard version.

    A good example is Kdybyjsme, most books for learning Czech don't mention it, then the first time I heard it I was like.. what on earth is that... It's good to see it written there and understand it, but not to use it...

    and anyway.. you learn Bohemian colloquial endings, then you go to Moravia, and everyone cringes.

    (a strange use of the zero conditional, I'm using it because I'm quite sure of my opinion, but of course it would be more proper to use the first conditional "If you learn..." )
  6. ondras

    ondras Member

    It is from the Czech idiom "v první řadě". The meaning is pretty similar to "In the first place".

    Yep, I realize that there are some people, for example you, who want, for whatever reason, to learn the standard Czech, but the majority just want to improve their communication skills, and for them, it is really not important whether they use pekne fotky or pekny fotky. They should be able to understand both anyway.

    Again, I'm not arguing against learning the standard Czech, I just think that it is not really necessary to correct every single mistake even when the incorrect version is in fact the most used one. Of course, if one wants to be corrected then it is perfectly fine to do so, but otherwise it can be more counterproductive than helpful.

    Well, I cringe (nice word btw :) ) almost every time I hear the standard Czech (which is not very often) so I guess you really don't have much of a choice here :). Of course if you want to take some exams in Czech then you should use the standard Czech, but otherwise it is really only up to each individual to choose which version to use. Anyway, as I said, everyone should be able to understand both the colloquial and the standard Czech.
  7. Ctyri koruny

    Ctyri koruny Well-Known Member

    Fair enough, but I think the mistakes should be pointed out, but maybe in a different colour ha ha, so we know we can ignore it if we like.

    I'm sure not all mistakes are pointed out anyway, as my teacher, with her PHD in Czech, is pained every day to see signs and leaflets all around her with grammatical and spelling errors on them, even Czech books by other PHDs. It seems to me that standard written Czech is for most of us an impossible dream!
  8. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    And this is exactly why I said what I said, just to make sure nobody would understand it this way (you should prefer -ý in spoken language because it's common). That's all. I don't think it's meaningless, this forum is about learning the czech language, isn't it? And after all, it was you who pointed out this mistake, not me ;) I just didn't want it to sound like if this wasn't a mistake at all, which could easily confuse somebody.

    Sorry but I though this forum was about something else. OK, my english is not 100%, I'm Czech and I'm here to help with the Czech language. I think you're Czech too, aren't you? Then I don't understand why it took you some time to decipher it.

    And about using Czech idiomatic expressions in English - you'd be surprised how many idiomatic expressions are the same in both languages. I'm a member of one international community and I've heard this (in English) many many times by people from all over the Europe, so I propably started to think it's correct also in English.
  9. ondras

    ondras Member

    Well, it was Alexx, not me :).

    Sorry, if my comment sounded like a criticism. I was just trying to point out that mistakes like this should definitely be corrected (regardless of whether they are made in English or in Czech).

    And yes, I'm Czech but I usually don't translate English back into Czech in order to understand it, so it took me a while to figure it out. I think, it would be the same the other way around as well (e.g. if someone said "Tahle úloha je kus koláče" then I would be probably rather confused too).
  10. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    Yep, I'm sorry, I noticed this too late.

    About the "first row" - in fact I'm really grateful to know it's wrong, I'll try to avoid it from now. It just was quite offtopic ;)

    Btw - the correct form is "in the first place", with the same meaning?
  11. GlennInFlorida

    GlennInFlorida Well-Known Member

    Yes, you can use "in the first place" with essentially the same meaning. You would be more likely to see or hear

    "It may be common (for some people, other people are disgusted when they hear it),it may be colloquial, but it is still wrong."


    "It may be common (for some people, other people are disgusted when they hear it),it may be colloquial, but it is, none-the-less, wrong."

    "in the first place" is usually used as starting a list of reasons to to or not to do something (whether or not the remainder of the list is given - e.g.:

    "Mom, why can't I go to the movies with my friends?"

    "Well, in the first place, because I said so."
  12. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Colloquial Czech is functional variety of the Czech language. It is not wrong, it is not mistake, it is colloquial! It is the common way the people speak with each other and anybody who wants to communicate with Czech people must be familiar with it. On the other hand, its usage could be inappropriate on some occasions.
    My advice for foreigners is always to learn to speak and write the standard Czech and to understand the colloquial one(s).

    v první řadě = in the first place, first of all, above all, first and foremost
    v x-té řadě = in the xth place
    v neposlední řadě = last but not least
    až v poslední řadě = as a last resort

    prvořadý = primary, prime, paramount, first-class, first-rate
    druhořadý = secondary, second-class, second-rate, low-grade, minor, B-
    třetiřadý = terciary?
    čtvrtořadý = ???
  13. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    Yes, but I wouldn't say "krásný fotky" is an example of what you're saying.
    Colloquial (for me) is "fotka" instead of "fotografie" or "rožni" instead of "rozsviť (turn the lights on)" etc.
    Krásný fotky is a clear example of wrong grammar, or a common mistake.

    I'm also seeing quite a lot "it's" used instead of "its" by native english speakers ("The cheetah is known for it's speed.").
    Is it colloquial? I wondered about this few weeks ago so I asked some native english teachers and they assured me that this is a pure mistake. And a common one, it seems.

    We can hardly put the equation mark between "bad grammar" and "colloquial".
    Of course, colloquial terms are usually grammatically wrong. But this doesn't work the other way around.
  14. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Every variant of the Czech language has its vocabulary, its semantics, its phonetics, its morphology, its syntax etc.

    krásné fotografie - psaná podoba spisovné češtiny (Literary Czech = written form of the standard Czech)

    krásné fotky - hovorová čeština (Conversational Czech = spoken form of the standard Czech)

    krásný fotky - obecná čeština (Common Czech = one particular colloquial variant of Czech)

    No, this is not colloquial. This is misspelling based on confusion of two homophones. Misspelling is mistake in transcription, while colloquialism is matter of spoken language.


    No, colloquial terms are always (by definition) correct with respect to the colloquial grammar. They are mostly correct (and sometimes incorrect) with respect to the standard grammar. And they are mostly incorrect (but time to time correct) with respect to the grammar of foreign languages.

    In general terms, they are always correct because they are by definition correct with respect to at least one grammar.
  15. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    That is quite a thread....colloquial vs conversational vs. standard
    We've got some slang here that would look horrible if it were written. It would look sloppy, lazy and inappropriate.
    Better left on the street.

    Čtvrořady....not sure we have a word for that....

    Především buď spolehlivý k sám sobě...Shakespeare.
    Pokud dostáš tvoje slovo a jsi pořád čestný, ostatní ti cení a budou vědět, že jsi dobrý člověk.
  16. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    <I'm not a linguistic expert, so everything I'm saying in this little discussion is my humble opinion.>

    So you're really saying "krásný fotky" is grammatically correct? I cannot agree with this. I've never heard of the term "colloquial grammar", but even if we accept such a thing exists, how can we say something is grammatically correct only because it's correct based on this "colloquial grammar" which was created by some people who have problems with the "real" czech grammar?

    Krásný fotky is an example of a mistake which sounds really stupid to many people. For example here in the NE of the Moravia it's really making people disgusted when they hear it (dunno about other parts of the country).
    There are better examples of similar mistakes, which are much more common because for many people it sounds better than the correct version, for example "krásná videa". You'll mostly hear "krásné videa" (even in the TV news etc.), because krásná sounds like feminine while video is clearly the neuter gender. But just because this mistake is really common, does it mean it's not a mistake anymore?
    Btw, I guess those saying "krásný fotky" would say "krásný videa" in this case. :oops:

    But the most important point is that I don't think the people who come to this forum to improve their Czech language skills should be taught mistakes from the very beginning. Czech language is difficult so every beginner will make mistakes similar to "krásný fotky". But I'd say comforting them that even Czechs use it because it's colloquial and even preffered (could have sounded this way) isn't the best way for them. It can easily end in "krásní fotky, krásná fotky etc", which in my opinion isn't so much worse than krásný fotky (it's the very same kind of mistake), but I guess you'll agree this REALLY is wrong.
  17. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    Not sure what should this word mean. Where did you see it? (It's misspelled, but I cannot find out from which word.)

    Především buď spolehlivý sám k sobě.
    Pokud vždy dostojíš svému slovu a jsi čestný, ostatní to ocení a budou vědět, že jsi dobrý člověk.
  18. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    snad dostojíš svému slovu, ne?
  19. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    Máš pravdu, nechal jsem se moc ovlivnit tou zkomolenou verzí.
  20. GlennInFlorida

    GlennInFlorida Well-Known Member

    "colloquial grammar"

    we have a form of it over here - it is called ""ebonics". some folks even tried to teach it in schooljavascript:emoticon(':roll:')

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