QUOTE: "In colloquial usage a name remains in the nominative after PANE" Ex. Pracujete jeste pane Machek? Are you still working Mr. Machek. It could also be "pane Macheku" Does it matter? I see the grammer calling for the vocative but I'm finding a side note in my book that says the above "quote". Just because something is accepted colloquially doesn't make it the best choice. Is there a negative connotation in going colloquial for lack of a better term. Thanks, Calvario P.S. I am enjoying reading all of the responses to my "vzdy vs vzdycky" question. Great input and historically enlightening-ok, that was a bit thick. [/u][/i]
Yes, Calvario, it is more colloquial (pane + nominative), however it is used very often. I think there is usually no negative connotation, some people feel it is not correct, but definitely not improper. Anyway, used by a foreigner I think it is even more normal, because often it is difficult to find the right declension of surnames. (For me for example in your case it should be pane Machku.)
Well, I don't agree with alenastef. I feel using nominative in this case as impolite or ignorant. I'm little pecuiliar in this and it's bother me. But I believe in case of foreigner it's excusable.
I was confused for a second here, but then I realized that you're probably referring to female surnames (e.g., "Dobrý den, Paní Štefánková.").
My family uses the vocative case all the time as well. However, is it rude to say "pracujete". My czech teacher said that to be polite when asking a question, you do it in the negative form like "Nepracujete..."
It is grammatically incorrect but in spoken language very common (at least in central Bohemia) to use nominative case when addressing somebody with surname: "Pane Novák" instead of correct form "Pane Nováku" Additionaly to it some people do not like their name in vocative case: nominativ: "Pane Tupec", vocativ: "Pane Tupče" (I think nobody will use vocativ with this name :wink: ) When addressing somebody with first name, then the name will be much more often in vocative cause that is also grammatically correct: "Pane Tomáši" (vocativ) When addresing with both first name and surname, then vocative is always used: "Pane Tomáši Nováku" In "written language" people use more often grammatically correct forms of addressing then in spoken language.
To dzurisovak: It looks like that English was not his cup of tea. Negative form is polite when you are asking for something (not when you are asking about something).
To MK I have a question in regards to your saying the negative is asking "for" not "about" something. A negative question such as "nestudujes nemcinu?" has 2 meanings: 1. "Aren't you studying German?" 2. "Do you happen to be studying German?" This is a direct example from a study book I have. Is this not asking "about" something. Many English speakers speak this way frequently. EX. "Aren't you working today?" or "Your not working today?"It's a negative way to ask a question, not that your being negative personally. You don't have to ask a question like this but it does sound more polite(just my take on it). I only bring this up to make sure that I am understanding correctly to use of a negative to ask a question as I see a lot of examples in my book. Thank you, Calvario I only bring this up to make sure I am understanding correctly 2.
I had in mind something like: "Nepůjčil bys mi knihu?" vs. "Půjčil bys mi knihu?" First one is more polite I vote for #2. Nestudujes nemcinu? (I think he/she is studying German but I am not sure about it) Studuji. Takže budeš vědět jak přeložit tohle slovo. (So you will know how to translate this word.) I understand it so "Are you working today?" and "Aren't you working today?" are the same questions, first one "rough" and second one "softened"/more polite :?: :!: :?: In Czech these questions are slightly different: Pracujete dnes? (I just wish to know if he/she is working today, no hidden meaning) vs. Nepracujete dnes? (Is it so, you are working today?) Another example: "Nekoupite si knihu?" (Means: Would you be so kind to buy a book? - I am asking somebody for buying book from me) - polite question When I wish somebody to buy book, I will never ask positive question: "Koupite si knihu?" is rough because it is simillar to "Koupite si knihu!" - command on the contrary If I wish to know if somebody will buy a book, then I will ask positive question: "Koupite si knihu?" "Neumim cist." Some examples I meet old man: Pracujete jeste pane Machek? Ne. Jiz jsem v duchodu. (No. I already retired.) vs. Nepracujete jeste pane Machek? Bohuzel. Jiz jsem v duchodu. (Sorry. I already retired.) Mr Machek knows I would need something, because I have asked negative question. BUT (to confuse you :twisted Mr Machek is at work and I phone him: Pracujete jeste pane Machek? Ne. Jiz mame zavreno. (No. We are already closed.) vs. Nepracujete jeste pane Machek? (same question, but more polite; like in English) Jiz mame zavreno. Co potrebujete? (Already closed. What you need?) AND ( to clarify it or maybe get you more confused) Pracujete jeste pane Machek? Ne, jiz jsem doma (No, I am already at home ) Great. So we can start diging the hole in front of your shop vs. Nepracujete jeste pane Machek? Ne, jiz jsem doma (No, I am already at home ) Who is then shooting on my men who are diging the hole in front of your shop? I hope it helps. I did my best but I am barely mastering Czech and to answer such question you need somebody who is mastering both languages. P.S. I will never say "Nepracujete jeste pane Machku?" - vocative but I will ever write it (except of examples of spoken language ). It is only my "personal taste".
I think rought in comparision with the negative construction, not rought at all. There's no reason to be afraid of the positive question. The negative question is rather a question for confirmation of a concrete hypothesis. In English, you use often question tags to achieve the same effect.