(CZ>EN) vsunuta

Discussion in 'Vocabulary & Translation Help' started by rsalc1, May 22, 2009.

  1. rsalc1

    rsalc1 Well-Known Member

    Translating from an online article about a dam:

    Přehrada je vsunuta doprostřed lesů.
    The dam is located in the middle of forests.

    Does "je vsunuta"="is located" ?

    Can anyone tell me if my translation below is correct? (This was a tough one to translate for me!)

    Průsaky vody v hrázi i v tunelech řeší 182 metrů dlouhá zeď na levém břehu.
    A long wall of 182 meters on the left bank/shore solves the leakage of water in the dam also in tunnels.

    Is 182 metrů dlouhá zeď na levém břehu the subject?

  2. bibax

    bibax Well-Known Member

    vsunut, vložen = inserted, interposed, pushed in

    Yes. Dlouhá zeď is nominative.

    A long wall of 182 meters = dlouhá zeď dlouhá 182 m :wink:

    N.B. 182 m dlouhá zeď may not be dlouhá zeď (a long wall)
  3. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    I see your confusion René. It is a troublesome structure for me too.

    Průsaky vody v hrázi i v tunelech řeší 182 metrů dlouhá zeď na levém břehu.
    A long wall of 182 meters on the left bank/shore solves the leakage of water in the dam also in tunnels.

    Literally and word for word it looks like.
    Leaks/leakage of water in the dýkes/dams and tunnels solves a 182 meter long on the left bank/shore.
    My grammar is not that good, hence the question marks.
    That is a sentence structure never used in english

    We always put the subject first.
  4. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    But I don't know what Bibax means...
    I guess 'dlouhá zed' can mean something besides 'a long wall'.
  5. rsalc1

    rsalc1 Well-Known Member

    Is "dlouhá zeď dlouhá 182 m" = "182 metrů dlouhá zeď"

    And what does it mean "182 m dlouhá zeď may not be dlouhá zeď (a long wall")? I am puzzled :?
  6. meluzina

    meluzina Well-Known Member

    is a 182-metre-long wall equal to a long wall of 182 metres???
  7. meluzina

    meluzina Well-Known Member

    actually, you could have the reverse order in english - except that you have to change the verb form - but then i believe it is called "passive voice" and isn't used all that much - although it does work

    e.g., leaks of water in the dykes and tunnels ARE RESOLVED by ...
  8. bibax

    bibax Well-Known Member

    The English sentences usually have the following structure:

    subject - verb - object (SVO)

    In the Czech syntax we rather use the term predicate instead of verb.
    Verb (sloveso) is a part of speech (slovní druh), predicate (přísudek) is a member of a sentence (větný člen). It is true that the predicate is nearly always formed by a verb.

    The Czech sentences can have SVO, OVS, SOV, OSV, VOS/VSO (in questions) structures:

    Zeď řeší průsaky.
    Průsaky řeší zeď.
    Zeď průsaky řeší.
    Průsaky zeď řeší.
    Řeší zeď průsaky?
    Řeší průsaky zeď?

    These sentences are ambiguous. You do not know what is the subject. The ambiguity can be resolved by an adjective (attribute) or by passive voice.

    Průsaky řeší dlouhá zeď (nom.). vs. Průsaky řeší dlouhou zeď (acc.).

    Průsaky jsou řešeny zdí. vs. Zeď je řešena průsaky (instr.). ....(passive voice)
    Zdí jsou řešeny průsaky. vs. Průsaky (instr.) je řešena zeď.

    Not always. Consider following examples.

    Tender is the night.
    "No!", said Mr. Scrimshaw angrily.
  9. rsalc1

    rsalc1 Well-Known Member

    Meluzina, bibax: thanks for your comments.
    I am still not sure if my translation is all right:

    Průsaky vody v hrázi i v tunelech řeší 182 metrů dlouhá zeď na levém břehu.
    Leaks of water in the dam/dyke and in the tunnels were solved by ________________________ on the left bank.

    Is "182 metrů dlouhá zeď " = "a long wall of 182 meters"?
    word by word "of 182 meters long wall"

    dlouhá is an adjective that modifies the noun zeď, isn't it?
  10. bibax

    bibax Well-Known Member

    182 m dlouhá zeď is the subject, because it is in the nominative case.

    182 m dlouhá zeď means that the length of the wall is 182 m, nothing else. You can think that it is a pretty long wall, but such a wall is rather very short in comparison with the Chinese Wall.

    A 182-meter-long wall on the left bank solves the leakage of water in the dam as well as in tunnels. (active voice: subject - wall)
    Leaks of water in the dam/dyke and in the tunnels are solved by a 182-meter-long wall on the left bank. (passive voice: subject - leaks)
  11. rsalc1

    rsalc1 Well-Known Member

    This sentence is very confusing.
    The article talks about a long wall: dlouhá zeď

    According to my limited understanding of Czech the phrase
    182 metrů dlouhá zeď = of 182 meters long wall = a long wall of 182 meters.

    Where the blue text indicates a modifier to the subject dlouhá zeď

    Can anyone explain word by word the meaning of
    182 metrů dlouhá zeď ?

    In other words, hopefully to enhance my understanding.
    How do you say in Czech:
    1. a wall of 100 meters length
    2. a long wall of 100 meters length (I am using 100m for simplicity sake) :)
  12. bibax

    bibax Well-Known Member

    1. zeď o délce 100 m = zeď dlouhá 100 m = 100 m dlouhá zeď

    This 100-m-long wall can be either relatively long or short in our perception.

    2. dlouhá zeď o délce 100 m = dlouhá zeď dlouhá 100 m = even 100 m dlouhá dlouhá zeď

    Avoid the constructions "dlouhá zeď dlouhá 100 m" and "krátká zeď dlouhá 100 m" or even "100 m dlouhá dlouhá zeď" and "100 m dlouhá krátká zeď".


    ta dlouhá/krátká zeď, která měří 100 m
    ta dlouhá/krátká zeď, která má délku 100 m

    No. The article talks about a wall which is 100 m in length.
  13. rsalc1

    rsalc1 Well-Known Member

    This makes sense if I memorize it as an expression.

    So it seems that dlouhá:
    1. sometimes is an adjective = long
    2. other times is an expression meaning "o délce"

    Is this correct?
    (Sorry about belaboring the topic, but to me dlouhá=long) :?
  14. bibax

    bibax Well-Known Member

    Your wall can be even "100 metrů dlouhá krátká zeď".

    1. sometimes is an attribute = long
    2. other times (with a number and an unit name) is an expression meaning "o délce"

    btw, dlouhý is always adjective.
  15. rsalc1

    rsalc1 Well-Known Member

    Bibax, thanks for the answer. I will note it down in my Czech vocab file.
  16. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    I guess you guys are right there.
    Those are good examples of mixing up the word order.
    Řekl pan nevševed jak pokorně škrabal hlavu.
  17. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Some other examples of the same construction:

    left-branching / right-branching (/ compound adjective)

    100 m dlouhá zeď / zeď dlouhá 100 m / stometrová zeď
    100 kroků dlouhá zeď / zeď dlouhá 100 kroků
    2 m vysoká zeď / zeď vysoká 2 m / dvoumetrová zeď
    30 cm široká zeď / zeď široká 30 cm / třiceticentimetrová zeď
    300 let stará zeď / zeď stará 300 let / třísetletá zeď
    100 stránek dlouhá kniha / kniha dlouhá 100 stránek / stostránková kniha
    5 minut dlouhá přestávka / přestávka dlouhá 5 minut / pětiminutová přestávka
    20 m vysoký dům / dům vysoký 20 m / dvacetimetrový dům
    5 pater vysoký dům / dům vysoký 5 pater / pětipatrový dům
    5 km vzdálená vesnice / vesnice vzdálená 5 km
    5 kg těžký stojan / stojan těžký 5 kg / pětikilogramový stojan

    Left-branching is used mainly in formal (technical) texts, righ-branching is common full form and the compound adjective is common short form.

    The short form is used only with simple numerals, the branching is used in texts with more expressions of the same kind with variable numerals.

    It is possible to use the very same construction with the opposite adjectives, but these forms are marked:

    100 metrů dlouhá (←unmarked) zeď = a wall of the length 100 meters
    100 metrů krátká (←marked) zeď = a short wall of 100 meters
  18. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    As for the word order, the basic Czech order is SVO, but because of the strong inflection the change of word order is not confusing in most cases. This makes the Czechs to use the word order based on topicalization. The topic is mostly marked by word order (first topic, then focus), sometimes by stress in intonation.

    English uses the topicalization in the same way as Czech, but it needs some tricks (repetition of the topic, passive verb, subordinate clause, periphrasis…).
  19. rsalc1

    rsalc1 Well-Known Member

    wer: these are great examples. Thanks for sharing.
    For those of us who have trouble with Czech numerals, can you spell them out? I am not sure if, for example if 100 in "100 kroků" is in nominatve or genitive.

  20. bibax

    bibax Well-Known Member

    I am not sure, it is probably in nominative.

    sto kroků dlouhá zeď
    třista let stará zeď

    Hypothetically it can be also accusative. The cardinals have accusative equal to nominative (with an exception of jeden, jedna).

    Now I realize that it is indeed accusative. :idea:

    jednu míli (acc) dlouhá (nom) zeď (nom)
    okamžik (nom) dlouhý (nom) jednu vteřinu (acc)

    ke zdi (dat) dlouhé (dat) jednu míli (acc)
    okamžikem (instr) dlouhým (instr) jednu vteřinu (acc)

    thus sto (acc) kroků (gen plur) dlouhá (nom) zeď (nom)

    I cannot understand that five-years-old Czech children speak Czech correctly. :roll:

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