Dear Lord Jesus

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by The Animal, May 18, 2008.

  1. czechchris

    czechchris Well-Known Member

    Firstly I would say that I made no such accusation. I said that I got the impression (rightly or wrongly) that helping the church was being used as justification fo wanting to 'build an empire'. Ok, so that impression may have been in error. It certainly was not an accusation.

    As for the private PM. Yes, I could have taken that route. Maybe I should have.

    On this we have to disagree. While God retains overall sovereignty as is his right as Creator, Satan is the god of this world. You quote many scriptures, but the fact remains that Jesus called the Devil the ruler of this world, Paul calls him the god of this world, and John says that the whole world is in his power.

    If God is the controller of this world then He too sees the suffering, death and disease of this world but chooses to do nothing about it, although He could stop it. Is He deaf to the cries of women and children in Gaza burned by the white phosphorous bombs? Is He blind to the millions of starving children? Does He not care about the wars, the disease, the starvation of millions of His creatures?
    Of course He cares, and will stop it, but at the moment Satan has the control of this earth by God's permission. To think otherwise one would be forced to accept that God is cruel beyond measure. Or that God takes sides in conflicts. Not the sort of God that I would want to worship.
  2. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    Yes, I do. It's interesting that Christians are able to argue more between themselfs that with other denominations, but there were many wars on this topic, so this maybe isn't so surprising.

    But more seriously:

    Although I'm atheist, I believe, that if there would be supernatural entity, who is allmighty, omniscient and ethically perfectly good (How Christians assert) and who loves its creations, then I really doubt that it cares if someone prays to it loudly or quietly.
  3. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    Or maybe there isn't one... No, sorry, I digressed from topc ;)

    Question is, is even possible to make all people happy? What about people, who are happy, when other people are unhappy? And what about people who, when are too long happy, start to be unhappy?

    God is omnipotent, but I guess it doesn't mean omnipotent in casuistic way - like classic example: Is God able to create so big stone, that he cannot to bear it?

    It's possible that conditions of our realm are incompatible with all people happy.
  4. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    :roll: This example is so contrived and trite as to be utterly ridiculous! Why would any God or anyone else want to make such an object? The idea that this one philosophical "gem" can disprove the existence of God is nonsensical (of course, in my opinion, most philosophers are full of nonsensical dribble--but then again, I'm a physicist :wink: ).
  5. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    Of course it is nonsensical, it's only wordplay.

    But your argument is also interesting, if you say that omnipotence is related with what its bearer wants.
  6. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    It would be interesting question, if omnipotent God is able to destroy himself, though.
  7. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    No, the example is not ridiculous. Maybe it says nothing about God’s existence and His abilities, but it says a lot about our ability to discuss it. It demonstrates the limits of human language.

    This remembers me of the famous words of a Czech professor of mathematics to his collegue physicist: “You physicists are so greedy, you want more and more money for your experiments. Take example of us mathematicians, we need only paper, pencil and waste bin. Or even better, take example of the philosophers, they needn’t the waste bin.”

    There are tons of books on differencies between actual and potential properties and no definitive conclusion as far.

    But as long as omnipotence is concerned, I would say it is a potential property. That’s why it is called omnipotence. :wink:

    Pay attention to the difference between “všemocný” and “všehoschopný”. Not accidentally the first is attributed to the God, and the latter to the Evil.
  8. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    My point exactly--that it's ridiculous to use this example as evidence against the existence of God.

    :lol: :lol: I love it! Great quote!

    "All-powerful" (i.e. capable of doing whatever he wants) versus "capable of doing anything" (i.e. willing to do anything possible to achieve his ends). That's my take on it.
  9. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    First of all, if you concede that Satan is in control only by God's permission then in actuality, he is not in control, God remains in control for he can take whatever permission he gave to Satan away at any time. Secondly, his control that you speak of, death & sickness, is not controlled by Satan but more by free-will that God promised his creation.

    God is so Loving, Giving, and Just that he granted each and everyone of us with free-will and refuses to take that gift away from us. Therefore murders and cruel people have free-will to do cruel things. Sickness was brought to this earth by our choice to sin. There was no death nor sickness in the Garden of Eden, but He warned them not to sin or they would die. When they sinned, God said, "now you will surely die." It was not immediate death for they went onto have children, but death and sickness was brought to us because of that sin. He causes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on the just and unjust alike (Mathew 5:45) therefore cruelty that is on this earth has everything to do with God's promise of free-will and nothing to do with Him being a cruel God or Satan being in control of the earth. Satan roams the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 & Job 1:7) but God is in ultimate control. Take a look at the story of Job, if Satan were in control, why would he need to seek God's permission to harm Job? Why would God need to grant him permission to do anything save his life (Job 1:12)?

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