Jak se pouziva "byvat"?

Discussion in 'Grammar & Pronunciation' started by 1500, Jul 19, 2008.

  1. 1500

    1500 Member

    Vim, ze znamena "used to be", ale cetl jsem, ze se muze pouzivat s ostatnimi slovesy, napriklad "bych byval".
    Dekuju,
    Jeff
     
  2. chinchilla254

    chinchilla254 Member

  3. Polednikova

    Polednikova Well-Known Member

    Really helpful, chinchilla. I now understand it much better.
     
  4. chinchilla254

    chinchilla254 Member

    I'm glad you do, that's why I wrote it :) Any more questions, please ask, I too need help with my English/Spanish/Chinese :)
     
  5. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    It is past conditional, it doesn't matter whether real or unreal.

    "Bývat" means "to stay, to dwell, to live" in Slovak and it is sometimes used in this sense even in some Czech dialects.

    In standard Czech it is only a frequentative form of the verb "být" which is used to emphasize a repetitive action (consequently also something common, something what used to be).

    It could be used in conditional forms instead of the basic auxiliary "být".

    You should also notice the adjective "bývalý" (= former, erstwile, ex-) which means literally "which used to be".
     
  6. chinchilla254

    chinchilla254 Member

    Please give me a sentence where "byl bych byval" means something real :-D
     
  7. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Do you mean "byl bych býval" with both verbs as auxiliaries, or with "býval" as the verb of meaning?

    Well, it doesn't matter. Conditional says that a statement is true given a condition. It says nothing about the condition. It is unusual to use a construction of the type "S is true given the C which is true", because there is the simple construction "S is true because of C", but it doesn't mean it is impossible. It is possible to use a (possibly) true condition in a restricting way (jedině, že bych byl býval...). It is possible to use a compound condition, especially conditioning by the tautology of the form "A or non A" is very common literal figure (tak jako tak bych byl býval...; v každém případě bych byl býval...). It is possible to use an unknown condition - that's typical for conditionals in questions, for example. Also the conditioning by another condition is possible.
     
  8. chinchilla254

    chinchilla254 Member

    That's kind of funny, I read the last post two times, and still ended up not understanding a thing. Maybe my brain is too little... but I still like my little brain :)
     
  9. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Byl bych byval....I would use to be....Does not make much sense in english either. My suggestion, don't try to use together

    Byl bych...I would, could....do something if....

    Jel bych tam hned, kdybych tebou byl.
    I would ride there immediately if I were you.

    Býval bych(maybe jsem) tam každý den v šest ale už ne.
    I use to be there every day at six, but no more.

    Chodívali jsme tam každý den, ale už tam nejdeme.
    We use to walk there every day, but we don't go there anymore.

    Non czech comments....ie...not trustworthy.
     
  10. kibicz

    kibicz Well-Known Member

     
  11. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Ok, so with Kibicz explanation, I think putting all those forms together gives you something like this. We call it 'pluperfect' or something like that.

    Kdybych to byl býval byl věděl, tak bych byl býval nechodil .
    If I would have known, I would not have gone.
    Alias: Pozdě bycha honit:)

    Býval bych tam každý den v šest, kdyby mi řekli abych tam byl v šest.
    I would have been there every day at six, if they would have told me to be there at six.

    Not for certain
     
  12. Polednikova

    Polednikova Well-Known Member

     
  13. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    "byl bych býval" is a double composed form:

    "byl bych" (conditional) - first word is lexical - verb in past participle, the second is auxilliary verb "být" (in aorist form, another past tense which is not in use from the 14th century except conditionals)

    + "byl jsem" (past tense) - first word is lexical - verb in past participle, the second is auxilliary verb "být" in present tense

    If you combine these, the core sentence is the past tense "byl jsem". In order to make it past conditional, you have to transmit te auxilliary verb to the conditional, so it would look like "byl byl bych" which is than changed to "byl bych byl" because "bych" is a clitic, so it stands in the second position. And in order to differentiate between the verb forms ("byl bych byl" sounds awfully), you use raher the form "býval" for the second one so that they are not the same (although the meaning is the same as it would be if there was just "byl"), so it looks like "byl bych býval"

    It works pretty much like double (or more) composed verbs in English:

    If we had begun yesterday, the room would have been being painted for twenty five hours now.

    paint > be painted (passive) > be being painted (passive progressive) > have been being painted (passive perfect progressive) > would have been being painted (conditional passive perfect progressive)

    maluji > jsem malován (passive) > byl jsem malován (past passive) > byl bych býval malován (past conditional passive)
     
  14. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    These are the types of sentences I have trouble with even in english.
    But that's a good explanation Eleshare.

    Kdybych uměl malovat tak dobře jak maloval Van Gogh, já také by byl famózní.
    If I had known how to paint as well as Van Gogh painted, I too would be famous.

    Kdybych byl byval kreslil tehdy stejný jako kreslím dnes, famózní bych by byval dávno.
    If I would have been drawing(would have drawn) then like I draw today, I would have been famous a long time ago.???

    Such past conditional patterns aren't used much, I guess.
    Can get the same idea across with something easier.

    And sorry Polednikova. I must have missed your post somehow.
    Your questions about 'had' as opposed to 'would have', you are probably right. Grammar is not my strong point.
     
  15. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Not exactly:
    Kdybych uměl malovat tak dobře, jak maloval Van Gogh, já také bych byl slavný.
    If I knew how to paint as well as Van Gogh painted, I too would be famous.
    (If I knew = I don't know; If I had known = I did non know)

    That is a mistake even the Czech people do. One uses "býval" only if the lexial verb is "být" or if it is part of passive construction:
    Kdybych tam býval byl... = If I had been there...
    Kdybych byl býval zabit... = If I had been killed

    *"Kdybych to byl býval věděl" is incorrect, as there are three auxilliary verbs ("bych" in "kdybych"; "byl" and "býval"). It is true that many Czech people would use such a sentence when trying to make the correct one, but it is due to the fact that pluperfect ("byl jsem šell") is totally out of common usage and past conditional is quite dead as well (although some of us are still able to form it 8) If I were you, I would avoid it:)
     
  16. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I understand that I should give up on attempting to perfect this part of Czech grammar, and I understand it's a finer point of communication that I really don't need to know, but....

    Kdybych býval vědět, že zítra přijdeš, upekl byl bych dort.
    If I had known you were coming I would have baked a cake.
    Kdybych věděl, že přijdeš, upekl bych dort.
    If I knew you were coming, I would bake a cake.

    Eleshare....your explanation about using býval only if the lexial verb is 'být' or in passive construction clears that up in my mind. The only thing is to remember that. So, if I don't try to use it, I won't get the chance to make that mistake. But I thing I get it now.
     
  17. MK

    MK Well-Known Member

    Hey Eleshar do not mess with famous Czech sentence:

    "Kdybych to byl býval věděl, tak bych tam byl býval nechodil".


    :D


    "Kdybysem to býval ..." :?
     

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