NIBIRU Are you ready? The earth as we know it will change

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by The Animal, Dec 16, 2007.

  1. czechchris

    czechchris Well-Known Member

    There's an awful lot of rubbish on YouTube. You have no certainty of the reliability of the videos on there; I certainly would not want to put my faith in something I saw on YouTube!

    Proverbs 14:15 (The Message translation)
    The gullible believe anything they're told; the prudent sift and weigh every word.
  2. The Animal

    The Animal Well-Known Member

    czechchris wrote;
    You are correct czechchris. I just find them interesting.

    czechchris wrote;
    You are correct about that too.

    czechchris wrote;
    You are also correct, I do not place my faith in YouTube.

    As far as being gullible, I do not see myself as such. I am not saying that you are saying that I am. I read Revelation's and you can see what is coming true. The world right now, as we know it is a BIG mess, we all know that.

    czechchris wrote;
    I probaly should not of stated that, we all contributed to this thread in our
    own way.

    Need to stay in the Word so you won't believe anything, need to research the Bible.
    Bible,Basic,Information,Before,Leaving,Earth. :wink:
  3. czechchris

    czechchris Well-Known Member

    Well, it seems that you can put the popcorn away, guys. I think some private communications have led to the abandoning of this topic!

    Just by way of comment to hopefully clarify something. The initial post quoted Revelation chapter 12 regarding the dragon.
    The Bible itself identifies the dragon in that chapter thus:
    So the 'dragon' is a symbol of Satan, the Devil. Nothing to do with supposed planets, unless then one identifies Satan with a planet (?).
    If one accepts the statement in Revelation that Satan and his angels have been thrown down to the earth from heaven, it would certainly explain why the world is the sort of place it is at the moment.
  4. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Belatedly, Sova enters the fray, writes a few formula on the back of an envelope, and finds that ...

    WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE! (mad shrieking ensues)

    Just kidding. <If only science were that easy ...>

    Sorry for the late arrival--I was out of town for the holidays (plus I was loathe to spend the time on any long calculations without any substantial evidence of pending doom).

    A few comments on some of the science issues that have been raised:

    1) If the passing a massive object near the earth is to cause its rotation to stop, as far as I can tell this might only happen through tidal forces (I'm not 100% sure if it this possible, though--I haven't done the math). My guess, however, is that to completely stop the earth's rotation would require either a very massive object (more so than Jupiter--remember we already have a Jupiter-sized object in our solar system--yes, it's the one called "Jupiter"), or a very near approach to earth (likely both). Of course, without doing the math, I can't quantify how massive or how near, but an educated guess is that a Jupiter mass would have to be well within an earth-orbit radius (a.u.) of earth, likely even nearer than a tenth or hundredth of an a.u. For "Nibiru" to manage every 3600 years to come that close to earth (i.e., in the correct season) would be more than fortuitous (er, unfortuitous). <Again, I haven't done the math>

    Now, one other thing, if earth were to experience such tidal forces required to stop the rotation (in a finite time, that is, say a month or less) would likely require tidal forces that would rip the earth to shreds, so that all that would be left would be pieces of earth that would eventually string out to become another asteroid belt--earthquakes and their aftermath would be the least of our worries in that eventuality. <Again, I haven't done the math>

    How do people know it's red? If this is a recent discovery, "Nibiru" must be fairly close, in the which case, it would be very difficult for any government to hide its existence. Note, for reference, a dwarf planet called Eris, abt. 50 times smaller than Jupiter, was recently (2005) discovered at a distance of 93 a.u. (mean earth orbital radii) from the sun. A back of the envelope calculation (yes, I actually do some of those) indicates that any such "Nibiru" with a 3600 year orbit should have a mean orbital radius of about 250 a.u., but be 50 times bigger. And of course, if "Nibiru" will be here in 4 years, it should be at present a lot closer, since it must have a highly elliptical orbit. All things being equal (which of course they're not, but assume so for the sake of a simpler argument), assuming 50 times the disk size and 2.5 times the orbital radius of Eris, "Nibiru" should be about 20 times easier to spot than Eris (basing solely on arc length of the disk), and that's before you even start thinking about any brown dwarf companion.

    I don't have the time to go into this further, but while I can't 100% rule out such a thing as being possible, this whole thing sounds extremely improbable, even without doing the math. I won't get into the religious side of this debate (I might as well debate the 1914 issue with Jehovah's Witnesses--that is to say, that neither side would change their stance anyway), except to say that if all the evangelical christians are correct, and all one needs to do is to publicly confess one's belief in Jesus (I do this all the time, just for the record), than there should be plenty of time to do so when the "impact" becomes publicly imminent.
  5. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Stopping the rotation of the planet!!
    Hate to pop peoples balloons, but this sounds extraordinarily ridiculous.
    This, I'm sure, would go against all laws of physics.
    If a massive celestial body should make a brief pass through our solar system, the orbits of planets could be disrupted, maybe slowed, and hence, maybe sent on an inevitable fiery crash into the sun, but slowing and even reversing the rotation of the earth is out of the question.
    An Isaac Asimov story maybe, reality, no.
  6. BlackBox

    BlackBox Active Member

    Well, that is basically right but there is more to it. Any reasonably scientific analysis must begin with realization that in order to change rotation you need moment of force in relation to center of mass of the Earth. That for one thing means center of mass must be different from center of gravity, as moment is directly proportional to the distance of the two.
    This is impossible in homogeneous field, but as any inhomogeneity in the field (you can call it tidal force) drops quickly with distance Nibiru would have to pass close to Earth.

    However in order to have an actual moment the force in the center of gravity needs direction other than center of mass-center of gravity line. This can only be achieved if either Earth or Nibiru have unsymmetric distribution of mass related to Earth center of mass-Nibiru center of mass line. Since Earth is very nearly spherical, Nibiru would have to be strongly nonspherical, for example it could be an oblate ellipsoid stabilized by rapid rotation.

    To sum up: shape and distance are more important than mass as sphere, no matter its mass, would not do much to Earth rotation.
  7. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Straying a bit from topic of nabiru, I find this kind of interesting, on January 30 of this year there is a chance, though slim, of a large meteor hitting Mars.
    It appears it will miss the planet by some 30,000 km. but they are not sure. It would give scientists a perfect opportunity to study such impacts, and their aftermath.
    Džím palce.
  8. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Earth's moon is largely spherical, yet the moon's tidal forces slow down the Earth's rotation, albeit at an extremely slow, yet measurable rate (the length of our day changes by about 2 milliseconds every 100 years due largely to the moon-Earth gravitational interaction). See According to that page, the slowing of the Earth is due largely to "tidal friction." In short, such a moment (albeit small) as you describe is actually caused by tidal forces due to the fact that the Earth is not a rigid sphere (lots of surface water, plus even solid rock has some elasticity), and due to friction which allows the net tides on Earth to be out-of-phase with the moon's orbit (see and for simple explanations).

    Granted, such an ellipsoid as you describe would have a larger effect (more so the larger the deviation from sphericity), assuming that the axis of rotation was neither parallel nor perpendicular to the earth-Nibiru center-of-masses line. I still don't expect such an object to exist, much less cause a total stop to the Earth's rotation without a very close approach.

    By the way, distance is more important than mass only because of the M/R^2 nature of gravity, but the quantity of mass does play a role, particularly when close approaches are so rare.

    @scrimshaw: Držím palce
  9. czechchris

    czechchris Well-Known Member

    Got any spare popcorn, anyone? :D
  10. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    I'm impressed. We got real astronomers, and apparently physicists that hang out here.
    I don't understand half of the big words, but it all makes sense, sort of, I guess.

    Gonna need some extra popcorn.
  11. BlackBox

    BlackBox Active Member

    I have simply assumed that Earth was rigid. I am of course aware of Earth-Moon tidal locking but it was not necessary to assume tidal friction (if indeed I knew about it) as I am fairly certain that Moon isn't quite spherical (or at least inhomogenous). Moon slowed Earth rotation from period 8 hours to 24 hours, but it had billions of years to do this, while Nibiru must return to deep space so that it can destroy another civilisations aeons later.
    You do not understand. The tidal force drops with R^(-3) not R^(-2). That is why Moon is more important in tidal effects than Sun, despite obvious fact that Sun exerts greater overall gravitational force on Earth. The Nibiru would have to pass close, very close.

    By the way my mechanism cannot truly stop a planet from rotating. It can at best synchronize rotation with motion of Nibiru. It is my understanding that tidal friction can actually stop a planet.
  12. wissy

    wissy Well-Known Member

    Sorry guys but......zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. :wink:
  13. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Wissy, you are not concerned about this vague planet on some odd 3600 year orbit around our sun, and what horrible devastation and calamity it's visit will cause?
    Wake up. Nespi! You might miss the best part.
  14. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    Not vague! It's a RED planet! ;)
  15. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Yes, of course, you are right. The force of gravity itself is R^(-2), but tidal forces are indeed R^(-3). Thanks for pointing that out.

    If you are sitting on the moon at the center of the "light side," the point of high tide on the Earth is not directly above your head (i.e. in line with the center of the Earth's disk). The rotation of the Earth combined with the drag force of friction causes it to shift. Then you have a "moment," which Black Box mentioned.

    It's like using a torque wrench. If you pull along the length of the handle (i.e. directly away from the bolt/nut your screwing in), nothing happens--the bolt doesn't turn. But if you pull perpendicular to the handle's length (like you normally use a torque wrench), you apply a torque and the bolt turns.

    For the tidal slowing problem, you can define a line from the Moon's center-of-mass to the Earth's center-of-mass, call it line A, and define another line (line B) from the Earth's center-of-mass to it's center-of-weight (which is the position where in a given gravitational field you could essentially regard the Earth as a single point of mass for a simplified force calculation). If these lines are not parallel (which they aren't because of this "tidal drag"--the tidal drag shifts the center-of-weight), there will be a torque on the Earth, similar to the torque-wrench example, which will change the rotational speed of the Earth.

    Now, wissy, is that clear as mud? :lol:
  16. wissy

    wissy Well-Known Member

    Well, er, um ......... er thanks for explaining it all in simple terms. :roll:

    z z z z z z z.............
  17. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    I understand - science isn't so interesting as dragons, rogue planets, rapture or miracles ;)
  18. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    I'm not a scientist, so I don't know these things. I was not aware there is a difference between the center of weight of the planet, and the center of gravity of the planet.
    So the friction(drag) of the water being pulled toward the moon in the opposite direction of the rotational spin forces the rotation to slow. The slowing process caused by the frictional force of the tides must be infinitesimal.
    So I think we're all safe for the next couple billion years.
    That's a relief.
  19. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    I don't even know what a torque wrench is. :) :oops: But I think I get the idea. I may not understand what you all are throwing out, but the message I get is that given our modern day science, it isn't likely that God will use this Nibiru thing to fulfill His end-time prophecies.

    I understand Wissy's point of view, the technical science stuff is too far over our heads to be exciting. But unlike wissy, what I do find tremendously interesting is the passion some of you have for science. Although it's not my passion, I love to follow the discussion because of the passion you guys have for it. It's almost as if we can see you smiling with excitement as you type. I guess that's just the social worker in me. :roll: :)
  20. wissy

    wissy Well-Known Member


    I could be an astro-physisist for all you know. :wink:

    I do have a passion for's just unfortunate that i have the attention span of a goldfish. :oops: :?

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