Pronunciation of Knize

Discussion in 'Grammar & Pronunciation' started by jayneedmonton, Aug 1, 2005.

  1. jayneedmonton

    jayneedmonton New Member

    My great-aunt's maiden name was Knize. The family thinks it may translate as either knight or king - Webster's Czech Dictionary says the translation is prince. My mother pronounced the name K-nee-zee. Some family members think it was pronounced Nize (rhymes with size). How should it be pronounced? Thank you.
     
  2. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    "Kńeezheh" (go to locallingo.com and listen to the pronunciation of ň and ž /zh/- among soft consonants).
     
  3. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    The word "kníže" is usually translated as "prince," but I'm not sure exactly what that means. I think the English word "prince," in the sense of the son of a king, is typically translated "princ." I think that "kníže" was reserved for nobles lower than the "overking" of the land, that still had some level of sovereignty over a small region. Perhaps someone more versed in this could clarify this.
     
  4. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    Kníže, resp. vévoda, was - and still is - the title of sovereigns of political formations existing in Europe since approx. 1000. The English word prince has two main meanings - 1) male member of a royal family, esp. a son of the sovereign, 2) ruler of a principality (i.e. kníže in Czech). Thus, the prince of Wales should be translated into Czech as kníže velšský (however, it sounds somewhat funny, doesn´t it :wink: ).
     
  5. Justin

    Justin Member

    "kníže" looks awfully similar to english "knight" (cf. also german "knecht") and seems to have similarly archaic overtones. anyone know if they're related?
     
  6. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Is Prince Albert II Grimaldi de Monaco, who was recently crowned, a Kníže?
     
  7. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    yes, in Czech it is kníže monacký
     
  8. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Justin, I have the impression Czeck kníže is closer to German König "king" than to German Knecht "male farm hand".
     
  9. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Thanks a lot, Jana. Do you know the etymology of kníže?
    AS you know prince is originally a French term that comes from Latin princeps "first" and is akin to principal.
     
  10. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    I have found the following:

    germ. kuning > slav. kъnędzь > russ. кънязь (fem. княгиня), cz. kněz (masc.), kněžna (fem.) > kníže (neutr.)

    the original Slavic equivalent is вождь (voždь) - leader

    the Czech word král (king) is derived from Carolus (Magnus)
     
  11. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    The first "knížata" (princes) were "knězi" (priests) as well, therefore the etymology followed the reality. The word "knes" (Old Slavic lang.) in the sense of "kníže" can be found in the Kosmas Chronicle.
     
  12. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Zeizig, does it mean that the Slavic terms are borrowed from Germanic?

    Jana, to what period did they belong these early princes with a sacerdotal function?
    The kings of France retained something sacerdotal: on the day of their coronation they were anointed like bishops, and were deemed to be able to cure various diseases by touching the patients. :D
     
  13. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    Cosmas of Prague was a Bohemian priest, writer and historian Born c. 1045 in a noble family in Bohemia. Between 1075 and 1081, he studied in Liège. After his return to Bohemia, he became a priest and married. Before pope Gregory's time, priest marriages were tolerated in the church (his wife's name was Bozetecha). In 1086 Cosmas was appointed prebendary (canonicus) of Prague, which was quite a prestigious position. As prebendary he also travelled through Europe in official matters. Cosmas died in October 1125.

    His magnum opus written in Latin is called Chronica Bohemorum [Chronicle of Bohemians/Czechs]. Chronica is divided into 3 books.

    First Book: We know that first book was completed in 1119. It starts with the creation of the world and ends in year 1038. It describes the foundation of Bohemian state by the oldest Bohemians around year 600 AD (duke Bohemus, duke Krok and his 3 daughters, Queen Libussa and foundation of Premyslid dynasty by her marriage with Premysl, old bloody wars, duke Borivoj and introduction of Christianity in Bohemia, Saint Wenceslas (in England better known as 'Good King Wenceslas') and his grandmother Saint Ludmila, reign of three Boleslavs (wife of Boleslav I was Eadgiva, daughter of King Edward the Elder of England), life of Saint Adalbert and bloody wars after year 1000.
    Second book describes Bohemian history of years 1038-1092. Book starts with heroical deeds of duke Bretislav, known as 'Bohemian Achilles', f. e. with his victory over Poland. Chronica also describes long and great reign of king Vratislav, who was a strong ruler but brave and good man. There is also a reflection on his wars in Italy; this second book ends with Vratislav's death.
    Third book (1092-1125), starts with a describtion of time of instability and bloody civic wars after Vratislav's death between years 1092 and 1109. Chronica ends with reign of Vladislav between 1109 and 1125. In same year 1125 Cosmas died.
    Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmas"

    Saint Ludmila´s father, Slavimír (or Slavibor) is mentioned in the chronicle as knes Slavimir. He lived in the 9th century.
     
  14. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    Yes, the Russian source says that the Panslavic word knjaz' comes directly from the Germanic word kuning with some phonetic changes: u -> hard yer (an ultrashort vowel); in -> nasal e, later ja (in Czech ě); g -> z', but the g in the fem. form remains unchanged knjaginja cf. Königin.
     
  15. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    This is a very interesting historical piece, Jana. Thanks a lot.
     
  16. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Zeisig, it seems this Germanic filiation reveals that the concept of king was alien to the Slavs. This may be parallelled with the use of a Latin term, cesar > czar, to refer to the emperor of Russia.
     
  17. zaner

    zaner Active Member

    German also has a cognate to the Latin caesar:kaiser.
     

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