So whats the real opinion on the EU constitution from CZers?

The question seems to be whether geography or culture (or something else altogether) should define whether one belongs in Europe, or the European Union. As to the question of geography, particularly that of the eastern boundaries of Europe, see Wikipedia's Geography of Europe. Yes, Europe extends even into Russia (the real Russia, mind you) past Moscow, and includes Ukraine, Byelorussia, and Moldavia, as well as the Baltic states, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Generally, Turkey is not considered part of Europe geographically speaking. In fact, in the schools here in the States, we often referred to it, historically, as Asia Minor.

As to the cultural boundaries, that of course is more complex, and a subject I won't even try to address.

 

Thats what I said i think.
Perhaps I should have said USSR. But i think the general opinion in countries I've lived in, and its been a few, is that these countries were 'Russia'. But thats like me expecting you to know all the counties in England...or the states of Australia or the regions of New Zealand. Just because you dont i wont make you feel odd. Sometimes education is concentrated on things you may see/come accros and i can assure you it was far easier to say Russia than list all the other .....states (is that what they were? Blame my Geography teacher for not making it more interesting!!!
My own thoughts are....Turkey....Europe.....its nowhere near. But thats my reason for thinking they shouldn't join the union. Its got nothing to do with culture.

Your pal Mal

 

Malnik:

I'm afraid he is.

 

UUSPOISS:

Finland, Greece and Spain share the same basic Christian culture. Turkey doesn't. Even people like me who don't go to church are conscious they belong to the Christian world, definitely not to the Muslim world. All these things are so obvious.

Now, I hope you are not going to tell me that the Finns are close to the Turks because they do not speak an Indo-European language. That would be a joke of course. The Basques do not speak an Indo-European language, yet they _are_ Europeans.

MALNIK
As regards the boundaries of the European world, I'm realizing that perhaps you tend to think in terms of vertical borders (meridians) whereas in the case of Europe and the Turkish world (that extends as far as China) one must think in terms of horizontal borders (parallels).

By the way, where do you hail from?

 

Granted. Albania also doesn't share Christianity. Should they also be banned from Europe because of that? There are far more Muslims in France than there are Christians in Estonia. What to make of that? These borders between the "worlds" are not and should not be so harshly drawn. The EU is first and foremost an economic alliance. Personally, I see absolutely no real reason to exclude Turkey based just on the fact that it's a Muslim country. It would be exactly the same as your alleged joke about excluding Finland or Pais Vasco based on their non-Indo-European languages.

I'm sorry for making you feel odd, that was not my intention. However, the USSR used to be the largest country in the world (by territory). I really do believe that it is elementary knowledge to know what it was about. There was far more cultural diversity inside the USSR than there ever will be in the EU. And no, it's not the same as you expecting me to know the counties in England (mind you, Estonia alone consists of 15 counties). But I do know that Great Britain consists of England, Scotland and Wales. And that Great Britain and Northern Ireland are the United Kingdom. I also know how some of the Irish feel about that. And I do know all the states of Australia and most of the regions of New Zealand.

 

I knew where it was. I know i will visit. You must realise that back a few years the USSR represented bad stuff....like i'm sure the US was shown as bad to you guys. We didnt all beleive it then either. But that was the basis of our knowledge courtesy of what we were taught. Prior to the break up there were countries i had never heard of. And i think thats probably true for many people. As for counties of Estonia....i have no idea the country was formed like that.

No argument from me on that one. I'm learning.....

Please explain? You mean the Irish, that is from Ireland or you mean the people of Northern Ireland who are British? It is true that some Northern Irish people want independance form Britain, it is also true some do not.

Go on then...and no cheating. .......... Only Joking.....and when i get to your country, we will have a drink!

Mal

 

I was born in Uk.....spent most of my life in New Zealand and Australia.
I've been to Cities that never close down, from New York to Paris and Old London town, but no matter how far or how wide I roam, I still call Australia home!
I'm always travelin and i love being free, so i keep leavin the sun and the sea, but my heart lies waitin over the foam, I stoill call Australia home.
(Courtesy of a good friend of mine by the name of Peter Allen.)

Mal (Excuse me while i sob silently.)

 

I don't think this is the place to go about discussing those issues. I'm sure some people feel as emotionally about that as you may have noticed I feel about people seeing the former USSR and Russia as the same thing. I'll admit I'm not too closely informed on the latest developments in Northern Ireland and therefore don't have any views on that, but I _think_ that during the Soviet times a far larger portion of the population here refused to consider Estonia or any of the other 13 soviet republics as part of Russia or even the USSR than there are independent-minded people in Northern Ireland today. As we've seen, they were right, it was but a temporary arrangement

I have to apologize to everyone for getting far off topic on this one. Got a little carried away. Malnik, you're on for the drink.

 

USSPOISS:

Don't forget the United Kingdom, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Spain. Yes, irresponsible and / or corrupt and / or cowardly European politicians have let this situation develop. It will cause violent civil wars in the future. The incipient one we are experiencing at the moment is nothing in comparison of what is in store for Europeans.

 

Qcumber

How right you were, already in February! It is absolutely scary what is happening in Paris right now.
I just wanted to add to the Turkey question the fact that Czechs have always fought in wars against the Turks. There are hundreds of stories about the dreaded Mamelouchové. We can theorize about borders till we are blue in the face, and still it won't change the fact that the fear of the Turks is in our folklore (fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how one looks at it :wink: ) and will not be forgotten any time soon.
L

 

In retrospect of the posts in this thread and the current situation developing within Paris, I agree with Lucia. The prospect you established Qcumber could not be more prevalant. How right you were!

 

Unfortunately, LuciaViolin, Evian.
Actually the clash is not between the Turks and the Europeans, but on a larger scale: between civilizations - the Muslim civilization and the Western civilization. It's a declared war (see what leading Muslim clerics have said for decades).

 

That's what I had perceived.
I firmly agree with that remark too.