what do you think about kosovo? and tibet?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by pedro1974, Mar 24, 2008.

  1. Petr_B

    Petr_B Well-Known Member

    I admit I don't feel like reading 700+ pages long document. I've just flipped through it and didn't find anything relevant to my question, e.g. statement by NATO commander like "We are going to attack Yugoslavia because .... based on article XY of the NATO contract". Speaking about WtD movie, I used more like joke (though as I wrote before, it surely resembles Clinton/Levinski situation), I'll try to use more smiley icons from now on :wink: .

    Let's not kid ourselves, NATO is led by the USA, European military forces are pretty much laughable. If I remember correctly, despite the battlefield was in Europe, it was the USA who provided most of the planes and missiles, not the European NATO members. Speaking about UN, was the bombing even sanctioned by UN? I admit I don't remember this but I think Russia would have vetoed the mission.

    There's no doubt travel is rather enlightening experience but I don't think it is relevant in this thread. Even if one visited Kosovo and have spoken to local Albanians, there's no guarantee they were telling the truth. Besides, not all of us have a list of our journeys in our web forums's signatures.
    So what do you say about opinions of McKenzie or Dienstbier?

    So you say there's absolutely no truth to these statement, like Clinton wanting to divert attention, Kosovo Albanians being heavily involved with drug trafficking and terror acts (on Kosovo Serbs and Gypsies), the USA not caring at all about its image in the eyes of Muslims, ....

    The reason why I (somewhat) used the comparison to Iraq was to show one shouldn't trust intel like that, whether it's WMD in IRAQ or 100,000 military-aged men missing in Kosovo. And when we're speaking about Iraq, I don't follow situation there closely, so my only opinion is that I don't think it's a good idea to withdraw occupational forces anytime soon.

    Anyway, I'm done with this topic, with my very limited knowledge of English, it's extremely difficult for me to engage in any serious deep debate. I thought it would be a good exercise, but it's (still) way over my head, I need to go back to my textbooks. :(
  2. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    I love this! :)

    The reason scientists can do a much better job at running the world than bleeding heart social workers. :wink:
  3. PGN

    PGN Well-Known Member

    Sova, thanks for the input. Somalia and Rwanda had an effect on the Kosovo operation in that the US would not go in alone, our European allies had to take the lead. Unfortunately the Kosovo and 9/11 had an effect on everyone and now there is no clear cut commitment to stop the killings in Sudan.

    Logistically, we working as allies can make the seemingly impossible...possible.
  4. PGN

    PGN Well-Known Member


    Please don't stop because you think that your English is limited. Everyone is communicating and figuring out what we really mean. Keep in mind that this method of communication that we are using is very hard to tell a person's intent or feelings. There will always be mis-interpetation, we need to sometimes state the same thing three different ways before we get our intent across.

    As to WtD movie, what I'm saying is that those guys that owe China $4000 to $31000 will make a film about anything close to reality to make a buck. (@Eso, like my segue??? :lol:) There may or may not be truth somewhere in the movie that's why I advocate multiple sources for information.

    As to Dienstbier, I'll have to ask my wife. If Reflex has done anything on him in the past 10 years.........then we have probably talked about him :lol:
  5. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    It seems we have different understanding of the term “double standards”. For me it is just a different treatment of different people/groups/states.

    I treat the children and the adults in different ways for example, I consider this a double standard, I consider this an acceptable double standard.

    Sova, I agree with most of your comments here, but I somehow wonder about your choice of words: Serbian occupation? Kosovars?
  6. pedro1974

    pedro1974 Well-Known Member

    I guess I should give up this topic, for the same reason of Petr (maybe is for the similar name... :lol: ), my english is not at high level for this kind of discussion.
    anyway, when I open the topic I didnt say: the americans or the europeans are bad coz they didnt care of kosovo and tibet, I know whom decide the politic position of a country, are not the normal people but the politicians.

    I know no one here have an own business interess in china or kosovo, so our opinions are just about our idea and not about committments.

    so I asked you whats your point.
    I'm italian, and the governament of my country decided to recognize the kosovo state but I prefer to support the serbia reason.

    it just seems to me an injustice.
    kosovo is a serbia territory, we almost all agree with this, only usa and ue politicians do not!(they only know the really reasons they create this new state, we can only try to guess...).
    we all agree with tibetan's protest as well.

    what we can focalize, is that the main actor of these "stories" are: usa, ue and china.

    this is an interesting point of view (for who would like to read):

    The Real Story Behind Kosovo's Independence:
  7. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Fine, I can accept that. Just so that it's clear that this "double standard" is a result of pragmatism, and not out of any moral capriciousness Americans might have.

    OK, would you prefer "Serbian aggression" and "ethnic Albanians living in Kosovo?"

    The first was perhaps a misstatement, although this would depend on one's perspective on regional history. I meant the word "occupation" to refer to the aggressive military rule of the Serbian government in Kosova at the time. Again, I can't think of a single word that expresses that accurately, and so chose a simpler, less precise word. Sorry if that caused confusion, but don't read anything into it.

    The second one was merely an attempt to shorten a longer phrase. Again, don't read any political leaning on my part into it.
  8. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    It's pretty obvious that what happened to the Serbs is a foreshadow of what is in store for all of us Europeans when Muslims will be the majority in our respective countries.
  9. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    As regards Tibet, I remember I had subscribed to a Chinese literature journal in English in 1958.

    When the Chinese invaded Tibet, I received a propaganda booklet in which they described all the so-called horrors committed by the Tibetans on the Chinese. These were shameless lies.

    Among the photographs, there was the well-known antique skin of a giant preserved in a monastery. It was deemed to be the famous Snowman. The caption read that it was the remains of a Chinese who had recently been skinned alive by Tibetans.

    Also ritual vases made from monks' skulls mounted on metal, were described by the Chinese propaganda piece as skulls of innocent Chinese killed by the Tibetans in 1959.

    All this was so gross and disgusting that I sent a letter to the manager of the journal to cancel my subscription and tell him not to send the numbers I was still entitled to.

    Although a naive young man at that time, this little experience taught me a lot about the Chinese.
  10. Worried man

    Worried man New Member

    Greetings, everyone.
    First of all, I don't want to offend anyone with this post by any means.
    Second thing, please excuse my English.

    I am from Serbia.

    To pedro1974: thanks for starting this topic.

    I really don't know anything about affaire in Tibet, though I would like to discuss about Kosovo. I am sad indeed on what is happening to my country. Looking back few decades, you'll see that:
    -SFR Yugoslavia was divided, and not peacefuly (knowing that Serbs and Croats have same ancestors, everyone can see how sad this bloodsheed was)
    -Remaining two countries of this country have parted ways: Montenegro parted from Serbia:
    -NATO bombarded our country after war with Albanians...

    To Alexx: please, remember that we really care about Kosovo, especially becouse that is not just a theritorry for us. Also, Nish is not the only Serbian town, and you did not spoke to all it's residents.
    I'll try to explain why did the ones you spoke to told you not to go to Kosovo: as like as Petr_B said, they think it's not safe there (you know that it's currently unstable region, and I need to tell that few remaining Serbian monasteries are under militarry guard, and protected by barbed wires); religious and cultural diferences and conflicts are too strong. And, I'll need to remind you that they did not flee from Kosovo willingly.

    About the crimes during war time: I really don't know who commited more of them, but I know booth sides did. For example, my friend told me about the video he saw: Serbian baby was crucified on the wall house. Can you imagine that? I cried after I heard that. Couldn't sleep for days.

    To eso: I dont want to act like I'm smart, but I KNOW, as well as YOU DO, Serbs are not only ones, Albanians raped women too.

    To PGN: you're not "bad" - man just asked for opinnions.

    To BMoody: It is hard to explain, as our cultural diferences are huge. Anyway, we are all taught to love our country with all hearth. We just follow the moralle codexs'. *She then went on about how she and her family would fight and die for Serbia. Scary stuff aye?*, you said. I don't mean to offend you with this, but take a look on what you said: it's not scarry to a girl, and is to you? Her words are patriotic, and if your country was in such a terrible conditions, under the treath, you would think and tell same words, if you were a patriot. Our country is small. (Btw, do you know about the Thermopile battle and king Leonidas?) But most of us are ready to defend it, despite the dangers and owerwhelming powers that can attack her. I think it's ok. What do you people think about that? Please understand that we are not barbarians. And one more thing: I am really offended and sad to see that Serbs are taken for terrorists. We are not terrorists! Please understand that!

    And what made me upset were some videos I saw:
    foreign soldiers (peacekeepers) torturing and killing dogs on Kosovo;
    old woman (about 70-80 years old) was beaten by group of Albanians, who ruined her house after that...

    Someone said that Serbs occupied Kosovo. Please, remember that Kosovo is Serbian theritorry. And more, as I said before. If anyone wants to know what Kosovo is to Serbia, please find some info on Battle of Kosovo, jully 28. 1389. and kniaz Lazar. And finally, this is why I wrote on this forum at all: I know that this is not going to help my country, but if any of you would do this, I'll be happier: just imagine yourself in my or my countrymen skin... Imagine that you lived on Kosovo, had friends and familly (most of them killed during the war), went to curch each sunday, visited monasteries (most of them vandalized by muslims; btw I saw television recording of Albanians burning one of our curches; one of them was atop the curch and breaking the cross of the roof), and after that someone forces you to flee from your home, becouse of other men fault. Just imagine that someone takes part of your country from you, and you cant do anything about that... Totally helpless...
    I know that we are in mercy of the world now, and therefore I hope that people who are to decide our destiny will show that they're human. I am religious, and so I need to tell this too: God, come to our aid!

    There is one more thing that I want to tell: there are many Romanians and Hungarians in north Serbia (Vojvodina) and a great number of muslims north-west of Kosovo - the part of our country that borders to Montenegro. Are these lands going to be taken from us, too?
    I am really worried. I am affraid there will be war again. Please do not support Kosovo independence!

    God bless all Christians, and respect to non-Christians.

    I am only 18 and I might not be competent to talk about this, but I really love my country, and want to know what do foreigners think about our case.
    Thanks for understanding, and thanks in advance for your replies.
  11. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Worried man: first, thank you for your perspective on Kosovo. And don't apologize for your English skills--they are more than sufficient to get your point across.

    Just to reiterate and clarify, my usage of the word "occupation" was a misstatement, given the then current political boundaries. I stand by the word "aggression," however, as there can be no question as the to one-sided nature of the previous conflict in Kosovo.

    I will clarify this previous statement by saying that I don't mean to imply that there were no atrocities were committed by ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. I'm sure there are many such examples--atrocities are always committed on both sides in war. It is an unfortunate and undesired consequence of the fact that the emotion of patriotism during armed conflict fosters such divisive attitudes of "we" and "they" that some inevitably come to regard "them" as somehow less than human, and in their anger and patriotism (perhaps even desire for retribution of past injustices) do previously unthinkable things to other humans, things they would never consider doing to their own people, and would cry bloody murder for such offenses to their own people. Such actions can not be justified, ignored or excused under any circumstance!

    Now to further clarify my previous statement, it can not be doubted that the ethnic Serbs had a decisive military advantage in the Kosovo conflict, and as such would be considered the more aggressive group. Case in point: in the U.S. (at least many states), if a person threatens you with bodily harm with his fists, yet you pull a gun and shoot him, you will be considered the aggressor, and thrown in jail. This is why the UN intervened on behalf of the Albanians. Not because the Albanians were in the right, but because of the lopsided nature of the conflict, because the potential for ethnic atrocities, given the intensity of emotion within such a lopsided conflict, would be skewed against the Albanians (whether or not such was already the case at the time of the UN decision or not). Unfortunately, many politicians and ordinary people (in the UN and elsewhere) have seemed to extend this justification of intervention as justification for accepting the Albanians' claim to an independent Kosovo, which justification (meaning redrawing political lines) is unfounded.

    I won't presume to argue to which ethnic group Kosovo does or should belong. First, I don't understand enough of the ethic and political background of the region to presume myself wise enough to take sides. Second, such questions bring up hundreds of years of history, during which the political and ethnic boundaries of Europe and elsewhere have changed hundreds of times, blurring the rights to property. If one argues that Kosovo originally belonged to the Serbs, and should stay that way, barring other ethnicities, e.g. Albanians, then the same question should and would arise elsewhere around the globe. Example: The U.S. should give land back to Mexico and England. Mexico should give it's land back to Spain. France, Spain and England should give land back to the Native American tribes, and where does it end?

    Yet in spite of all this inability to find who has the right to control Kosovo, it is extremely apparent to me that the UN had both a reason to step in, like a boxing referee stopping a fight after one combatant is already on the ground, and a moral obligation to do so. Rather than killing each other, both Albanians and Serbs need to find a solution through dialog, where they can both live in peace. Even if there weren't such historic ties to the area on both sides, there is too much geographical mixing of the two ethnicities to make relocation of one or the other group feasible. And ethnic violence to remove one or the other is not a morally acceptable solution.

    P.S. By the way, I am not in favor of Kosovo's independence, as this only serves to further divide, rather than foster peace in the region.
  12. Worried man

    Worried man New Member

    Sova, thanks for your reply.

    About my English - I had to apologize, because I didn't learn it in school.

    Than, about that "occupation" thing... It's my fault. Someone already had a comment about that, and you replied, tho I didn't read it (I've read it after I posted my reply). Sorry.

    About the law... I'm not sure U.S. and all U.N. countries laws are the same. And, what's with "selfdefence factor" in the example you gave to me? Btw, I also watched many U.S. movies with "get out of my property" words, and unholstering gun after that, if intruder doesn't leave the place immediately.

    "... ethnic Serbs had a decisive military advantage in the Kosovo conflict...". That's logically true, because Kosovo is part of Serbia sovereign territory, and our military forces were there. Of course, there were many para-military forces on Kosovo: Serbian, as well as Albanian. That's were did many war crimes came from. Those people are war-profiteers, and do not care about humans.

    "I won't presume to argue to which ethnic group Kosovo does or should belong. First, I don't understand enough of the ethic and political background of the region to presume myself wise enough to take sides..."
    You're a fair person. I am really glad to see that. And, I must say, you're right. You don't know everything you need to argue. Even I don't know everything. Tho I know people that lived there, and they, believe me, know many things that happened. You have the point when you say that this is the matter of history, tho I will not force you to read Serbian history :) Else, you would know about Balkan wars, about how world's leading powers formed big Albanian state, on count of territories that Serbia liberated from Turks (that's related to finally driving Turks from Balkans), about WW1 Serbian army and people withdrawal across the Albanian mountains in mid-winter, and how Albanians used to "accidentally" released their hungry dogs on withdrawing columns, and so forth, and so forth...
    By this, I don't want to point that someone should revenge them - not at all, I just want you to know what happened in past.

    "the political and ethnic boundaries of Europe and elsewhere have changed hundreds of times, blurring the rights to property. If one argues that Kosovo originally belonged to the Serbs, and should stay that way, barring other ethnicities, e.g. Albanians, then the same question should and would arise elsewhere around the globe. Example: The U.S. should give land back to Mexico and England. Mexico should give it's land back to Spain. France, Spain and England should give land back to the Native American tribes, and where does it end?"
    I think you're right. But, there are not too many Native Americans left, you'll have to agree. And no one blamed European immigrants for that bloodshed. You'll probably say: "Laws have changed since then", but those people were humans, too.

    I don't mean to offend you, but we booth know that referee does not beat the combatant that stood after the ended match (especially if referee is muscular, and combatant is skinny, that's not morally), nor he goes out to kill his family and people he used to know. You don't bombard whole country for weeks after these things.

    "there is too much geographical mixing of the two ethnicities to make relocation of one or the other group feasible..."
    With all the respect required (especially because you're older than me), I need to disagree on that. My countrymen were forced to transmigrate from Kosovo to northern lands of our country. Once again, I must point out that I do not want to insult anyone by posting any word on this forum.

    "And ethnic violence to remove one or the other is not a morally acceptable solution."
    On this, I agree to the fullest!

    If you can, please see some ethnic maps of Serbia. There are many Romanians and Hungarians in north part of Serbia, as I already said. What do you think about that (I mean, possibilities of separatistic activity in future, etc.)? Btw, I need to say we didn't scale an ethnic cleansing there :)

    I would be most glad if you only keep in your head that not all people are the same. Also, I think most of wars were waged because of greedy and immoral, unethical presidents/kings/emperors/dictators...

    I hope to see some more comments. Thanks in forward, people.

    One more thing, non-related to this topic: how did you get to that nickname? I saw your avatar... Isn't it: owl? It's sova in Serbian :D
  13. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    I do not know much about the motivation of the different sides in that conflict, but I sure hated to see it happening.
    I know age old territorial claims were the main reason. To see a country ripped apart, and the old animosities resurface. Tito and communism seemed to keep all that buried, but evidently it wasn't buried very deep.

    People wanted to assert independence, and others did not want that to happen.
    But to hear of the visciousness, and malice against what were once neighbors was incomprehensible. If the war crimes on both sides were at all true, I can just wonder how people can be so inhumane.
    Sarajevo was so beautiful in the olympics, and then it was a war zone.
    I just wish there were better answers than that.
  14. Worried man

    Worried man New Member

    Thanks for posting.

    "People wanted to assert independence, and others did not want that to happen."
    I just wanna ask a question: what do you think, who wanted to assert independence?
    Now, I would not say: "imagine if your country...". Just imagine two virtual countries. Let them be Xia and Yia. Now, these countries have common boundaries. Throughout the time, Yians are settling in Xia. Now, there are so many of them in Xia, that they want an independent state, Zia (which will later probably become part of Yia, don't you think so?). Now, tell me that this is ok...

    Ofcourse, neither do I like any sort of conflicts, especially if my countrymen are getting killed thanks to it. About communism, I share your opinion: it had a large influence on our country being destroyed.
  15. kibicz

    kibicz Well-Known Member

    In short: Bohemia and Germany before 1946...
  16. Ark1tec

    Ark1tec Well-Known Member

    I agree that the Serbs were not given control of Kosovo because the Serbian army was guilty of war crimes. If what you say is true that the majority of people in the Kosovo area are of Albanian origin then giving Serbian leaders control would be dangerous. Kosovians have the right to practice any religious beliefs they choose. Remember, the war in Iraq is about oil, not, religious beliefs.
  17. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    :roll: :roll: If it were about oil, why the heck aren't we taking it from them! It's about defense. They attacked us first. Since we've defended ourselves, there has yet to be another attack on American soil. But anyway, it's a futile discussion that I'm tired of having. Regardless of how much we both talk, neither one of us will convince the other so what's the point. [​IMG] exhausted.
  18. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Albanians is fine, not so the aggression. Aggresion and occupation are strict terms defined under international law, and both occupation of your own territory and aggression on your own territory is nonsense.

    Do you think the church in Podujevo? That's specially painful for Czechs. The church was guarded by a Czech KFOR unit, but the NATO HQ refused to help them against the Albanian mobs, they just managed to evacuate the people.

    I strongly disagree with this! You can't suppose that the stronger side is the more aggresive one.

    And it is also why the Serbian army intervened on behalf of the Serbians, Jews, Gipsies, Macedonians, Greeks and even some Albanians terrorized by the UÇK.

    BTW, there was no UN intervention. The NATO intervened in spite of the disagreement of the UN.

    The principle of territorial integrity is not based on historical claims, it is based on the status quo. It doesn't matter that Kosovo was once Serbian or Turkish. It does matter it is Serbian right now.

    The UN decided Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia.

    It is the Albanian side which (at least since the NATO intervention, but I tend to say from the begining of the 80's) refuses all the Serbian requests on dialog.

    And what about the other nationalities in Kosovo?

    The story of the Czechs and Germans is an evidence you are not right.

    Nice idea, but all sides have to respect it, right?

    I was never in favor of Kosovo's (nor Tibet's) independence. From the very beginning I supported the NATO intervention even in spite of the opposition of the UN. But with the first bombing of the core Serbia I realized the intervention is about something else than separation of two figting sides.

    I was not happy about it as well, but I was not surprised at all. I remember my geography teacher at the elementary school to say us that Kosovo is the place of the next war in Europe. And in the early 80's, when I heard about the riots of Albanian students in Kosovo, I was sure the teacher's words were true.

    No, this is not conflict of territorial claims. It is conflict of territorial integrity and self-determination.

    War crime is a violation of the war rules, but the conflict in Kosovo was never a conventional war. The UÇK practised a guerilla warfare from the very begining. Thus, it has no sense to speak about war crimes here.

    We can speak about violence, crimes, atrocities and so on, but hardly we can judge who was more aggressive and guilty.

    But one thing should be noticed, the today's representation of Serbia is different, the totalitarian administrative of Milošević was replaced with a democratically elected authorities. The Albanian leaders are still the leaders of the terroristic UÇK.

  19. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    Well, I think it's because war didn't go so well, how was planned and oil in Iraq still aren't fully under control. :)
    And installed (ehm elected) Iraqi government doesn't cooperate how was expected ;)

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 99,00.html
  20. Ark1tec

    Ark1tec Well-Known Member

    Before the war serbians and others lived as neighbours in peace.
    Would it not be fair to say that the majority on both sides are innocent of ethnic cleansing and other war crimes. Couldn't people in kosovo once again live as neighbours no matter where their originally from in peace again. In the same way that germans and english live together in peace?
    The war is over and repatriation must begin. Kosovo need not be an albanian annexe as you seem to think it is if people are allowed to come and go freely as they wish.

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