Ptát se/zeptat se take the genitive, why??

Discussion in 'Grammar & Pronunciation' started by Calvario, Dec 15, 2006.

  1. Calvario

    Calvario Well-Known Member

    Why do ptát se/zepat se take the genitive?

    Zeptala se mě.... She asked me...
    Když jsme se jich zeptali... When we asked them...

    When the preposition "na" is used it is in the accusative.

    Zeptám jsem se jich na knihu. I asked them about the book.

    Is the above sentence correct? Anyways, I don't understand why the genitive is used. I was thinking maybe the sentence above could be "When we asked OF them.." "When she asked OF me... I don't know but I would like to know.

    Me alegro de ver que hable Espanol Wicker.

    Thanks,
    Calvario
     
  2. Wicker808

    Wicker808 Well-Known Member

    Your sentence is not correct. I wasn't sure if you wanted past tense or future tense, so I've given both.

    There's no good reason why these verbs take genitive case. They just do. Many verbs take objects in cases other than accusative, and there isn't any particular rule that allows you to predict them. They have to be memorized.

    I'm not sure if I understand the distinction between "ask somebody" and "ask of somebody." I think the former is for questions, and the latter is for requests. If so, then you would translate the latter using the verb "prosit."

    Me alegro de que tú te alegres, Calvario. Si no te molesta, creo que nos podemos tutear en el web.
     
  3. DanielZ

    DanielZ Well-Known Member

    These verbs take the genitive because we "ask of," and "of" is genitive.

    ptám se — I ask of

    účastním se — I take part of

    bojím se — I am afraid of

    všímám si — I take notice of

    These are just a few examples of verbs that take the genitive.

    Dan
     
  4. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    It is possible to ask a question of someone, but this is rare usage nowdays, at least in the U.S. Usually asking something of someone does refer to a request, as you said.
     
  5. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    It is called something like "genitive of separation/partition" (in Czech "genitiv odlukový"). it is used throughout all indoeuropean languages, especially ancient Greek:)) Those examples are not very... exemplifying (except the "bát se +2") but this kind of genitive functions to mark some kind of separation between two things, especially when there is something negative about it.

    bát se +2 - to fear st.
    štítit se +2 - to loathe st.
    střézt se +2 - to guard oneself from st. (yes, in English there is kind of this genitive too, expressed by preposition "from")

    This genitive of separation/partition is also used in French in form of "article partitif" (partitive article) that is used with food to mark that the speaker takes only a part of it. Article partitif is formed by adding prep. "de" to the definite article. Preposition "de" in Frech means pretty muxch the same as English "of/from".

    In Czech, there is only one partitive in form of "chleba", the genitive of "chléb" (bread) It is used in "jím chleba" (I am eating bread). There is no other word with similar properties, so the word "chleba" begins being used in more common sense of nominative (Chleba je dobrý - The bread is good; no partition meant, but still we use it... without knowing about its former purpose).

    Case valences of verbs are something you just have to learn (pretty much as English prepositional valences)... there verbs with specific case (genitive: štítit se, dative: rozumět, accusative: vidět) and even with specific prepositions (and adequate case).
     
  6. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    Oh, I thought chleba was the word for bread. So I would have said, "jím chlebu" I guess I would have been wrong. :?
     
  7. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    You would, it sounds ridiculous :D
    It seems that one can never truly understand his mother tongue if he never tries to teach it...
     
  8. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    I do not know such verb. :shock:

    perhaps stříci se (střehu se, střežeš se, ...; střez se!)

    I do not understand. :?

    Some examples of the partitive genitive:
    dát koním ovsa
    nanosit dřeva, vody
    nalít vína
    ukrojit sýra
    natrhat švestek
    ...
     
  9. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Except of the one with "wine", all variants seem a little bit unnatural to me. I would employ some kind of measure, like "ukrojit kus sýra", otherwise simple accusative seems completely sufficient to me, e.g. "nanosit dřevo, vodu; dát koním oves; natrhat švestky".

    I admit that the infinitive form "stříci se" sounds really better than "střézt se" but I think the form I mentioned is somehow more modern (such as "můžu" compared to "mohu"). No that the verb itself is used too much :D
     
  10. Karel_lerak

    Karel_lerak Well-Known Member

    I don't agree, in my opinion the form "střézt se" is (incorrectly) derived from the surviving imperative "střez se!, střezme se! 8) I agree, that its use is now very rare.
     
  11. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    It seems different to me. "Natrhat švestek" sounds archaic to me - I prefer the accusative here, but I can't imagine using of accusative with the material nouns unless using it in a different meaning.

    "Dej kobylám, to ti povídám, dej kobylám oves!" - No, that's strange. :wink:
    More modern? Google test of modernity gives zero :!: hits for both forms střézt and střézti (unlike 379 hits for stříci).
    A Werův slovník naučný také mlčí. 8)
     
  12. Ájík

    Ájík Well-Known Member

    :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: what was that means :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
     
  13. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    I guess it means nonsense (nesmysl). I thought chleba was the word for bread such kava is the word for coffee so I would have said "jím chlebu" such as I would have said "píju kávu" I didn't know the word was chléb. I hope that makes more sense Ajík.
     
  14. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    i know what you meant. But "chleba" is genitive sg. masc., not nominative sg. masc./fem. (but it could be used in this form... and more and more is in fact - as you can say "chleba je dobrý" which is in spoken language somehow more natural than "chléb je dobrý" - but all other cases are derived from the basic form "chléb" - "chlebu" is dative sg.) In your example it seemed that you thought it is "ta chleba (fem.)" which sounds really funny to Czech ears :)
     
  15. Ájík

    Ájík Well-Known Member

    You're right Katka :wink: :wink:

    Don't worry, the word "chleba" may be used in all cases. :wink: :wink:

    [​IMG]

    .... in fact "chléb" is the literary word and "chleba" is more familiar. I don't know how it's in Bohemia, but here I didn't hear anyone to say: "dám si chléb" or "mám rád čerstvý chléb" or "chléb s máslem" ... . Always (mostly) it was "chleba".
    But it may be different by a region.

    anyhow "chléb" = "chleba".
     
  16. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    We had a discussion about bread here.

    :shock: To snad ne!

    ke chlebu (dat.), ve chlebu/chlebě (loc.), s chlebem (instr.) !!!!

    Dám si chleba.
    Toto je přece spisovná čeština, slovo chléb je v genitivě. 8)

    Nemám peníze, nemám chléb. (acc.)
    Nemám peněz, nemám chleba. (gen.)


    Obě věty jsou gramaticky správné.

    Mimochodem genitiv použitý ve druhé větě se nazývá ZÁPOROVÝ GENITIV.
    8)
     
  17. Ájík

    Ájík Well-Known Member

    Ziesig You're right again. :twisted: The Czech l. is really strong part of me :wink:
    thanks
     
  18. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    Používání partitivního a záporového genitivu v předmětu není nesprávné (zatím), ačkoliv to může znít poněkud archaicky (natrhám si švestek, nemám matky ani otce). V případě chleba je ale paradoxně použití genitivu považováno za nespisovné (ukrojím si chleba), ačkoliv je naopak zcela správné (ukrojím si přece část z celku - odtud termín partitivní gen.).

    Tím není řečeno, že každé použití genitivu místo akusativu (nebo dokonce nominativu) je správné.

    Ještě jedna zajímavost:

    Ve staročeštině bylo používání genitivu daleko častější než dnes. Některé "akusativy" jsou ve skutečnosti genitivy vzaté za akusativy.

    Např. mne, tebe, sebe, nás, vás jsou původně genitivy.
     
  19. Ájík

    Ájík Well-Known Member

    Svatý Václave, vévodo české země,
    kněže náš, pros za ny Boha, svatého Ducha!
    Kyrieleison.

    Nebeskéť jest dvorstvo krásné,
    blazě tomu, ktož tam pójde,
    v život věčný, oheň jasný svatého Ducha.
    Kyrieleison.

    Pomoci tvé žádámy,
    smiluj sě nad námy.
    Utěš smutné, otžeň vše zlé, svatý Václave!
    Kyrieleison.

    "otžeň" - tohle je nádhera !!!! :D :D :D
     
  20. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    pros za ny, pomiluj ny - tak tohle ny je akusativ

    pomiluj nás - tohle nás je původně genitiv
     

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