more on se and si

Discussion in 'Grammar & Pronunciation' started by scrimshaw, Jun 24, 2007.

  1. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Budu si to snazit zapamatovat.
    Snazím se na něco si vzpomenout.

    I still struggle with the reflexive concept.
    In the first sentence the se reflexive for Snazit se is ommitted, yet retained in the second sentence.
    Is this regional? One is more grammatically correct than the other?
    Thanks
     
  2. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    It’s perfect 8) you are struggle with this because the first sentence is not correct. The reflexives can not be ommited.

    Budu se snažit zapamatovat si to.
    Snažím se na něco si vzpomenout.
     
  3. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    I do not know exactly whether they can be omited and the phrase will still be considered grammatically correct but mostly in spoken language they are ommited very often, especially if there are two of the same kind.

    e.g.:
    verbs "zeptat se koho/čeho" (ask sb.) and "bát se koho/čeho" (to be affraid of sb., to fear sb.)

    What no one says: "Bál se zeptat se ho" (he was too affraid to ask him)
    What everyone says: "Bál se ho zeptat"

    There is a strong tendence to place clitics to the second ace in sentence and it affects even the pronouns that are not part of the finite verb. The reason why one can be omitted is that it is not really "omitted" but the pronouns virtually merge into one that serves as a reflexive for both the verbs.

    If there are two different reflexives, one is sometimes ommitted (the reason I write this word differently every time you see it is mainly the hope of writing it correctly at least once :) ) but sometimes it sounds a little bit strange as in yours "budu si to snažit zapamatovat" but I am not sure whether anyone would remark it.

    My explanation of the ommission (not again... but two S, I am sure...) is that the reflexive does not possess any information, it is completely redundant part of the verb. There are verbs like "procházet" (pass through) and "procházet se" (to have walk) and I cannot imagine that the aforementioned mersion could occur here as there would be significant change in meaning. On the other hand, there are no irreflexive counterparts to verbs as "snažit se", "zapamatovat si" and many others (but there is the pair "vzpomenout si", "vzpomenout", which is maybe the reason why you did not encounter the other form), so it is clear that if I say "snažit", I mean "snažit se".
    Note that this ommission is possible only if there are two reflexives in a dependence (or in an infinitive used as an imperative, i.e. "zapamatovat!" instead "zapamatujte si to").
     
  4. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Thanks
    omit, omitted, omission

    Hope you understand my confusion. That is the challenge that I like about learning another language.
    wash myself=myji se
    driving himself=řidí se do Prahy
    and.....getting(which again implies the same subject and object
    I am getting tired=Unavuji se
    ...as opposed to...To mě unavuje...that tires me
    Chystám se=I am getting ready
    I am fearing(I am afraid)=bojím se
    Připavuji se na soutěž=I am preparing myself for the competition.

    But the more I think about it the easier it becomes.
    Rozhodl jsem se, že bych se na ni to zeptal.
    Bojím se na takové věci si myslet, protože nechcí, abych je působil.
    (I am afraid to think about such things, because I don't want to manifest them(cause them to happen)???
    Bal jsem se rozhodovat se bez její vkladu(I was afraid to make a decision without her input.)???
    Zuju se ted', ale si sestra obuje hnědé boty, protože musí jít ven.
     
  5. Alexx

    Alexx Well-Known Member

    That is pretty interesting think, this "se si omitting", I had no idea such thing exists :)
     
  6. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Díky Djavatar
    reflexives...a pretty unfamiliar concept, actually I think we use it, but we are just kind of unaware we use it.

    Myji se..myji si ruky
    Řítí se do prahy ....naučil jsem se nové slovoso.
    Jsem unavený, nemůžeme si někde odpočinout.
    Bojíme se, že se nás připavuji napadnout. Chysatjí se od svítání.
    Rozhodli jsme se ji zeptat, protože ona má všechna odpovědy.
    Někde působíme věci, protože se je přílíš moc bojíme.
    Myslíme si, že se něco zlé asi stane, a nějak se stáva.
    Zuji se, konečně, protože skončil své dlouhý den, ale si sestra obuje teplé hnědé boty proti zimu, protože musí jít zas do zimy.
    Bali jsme se rozhodnout, aniž bychom se s ní nejdřív poradili.
     
  7. Alexx

    Alexx Well-Known Member


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    She is really cute, so please vote 10. Thanks a lot.
     
  8. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    I was writing to the Department of languages of our faculty and I began:

    "Podařilo se mi přihlásit" (podařit se + přihlásit se)

    :roll:
     
  9. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    Scrimshaw wrote
    .

    There can be three options:
    Rozhodl jsem se, že bych se na ni zeptal.
    I decided I would ask about her.
    Rozhodl jsem se, že bych se na to zeptal.
    I decided I would ask about it.
    Rozhodl jsem se, že bych se jí na to zeptal.
    I decided I would ask her about it.
     
  10. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Thanks everybody
    I've been thinking. We have transitive(having an object) and intransitive (not needing an object) verbs.
    Maybe that is how we express the reflexive concept.
    Čtu něco..I'm reading something...transitive
    Čtu si....simply..I am reading......I think this use of the verb would be considered intransitive.
    další překlad
    Obejdeme dnes jezero v parku třikrát.
    Neobejdu se sám v tom velkém světě...I will not be able to get around(along) alone......

    Thanks Jana, to je ted' jasné.
    že bych se na ni zeptal.
    ,že bych se na to zeptal.
    ,že bych se jí na to zeptal.

    Někde působíme věci, protože se je přílíš moc bojíme. (We are causing things somewhere, because we are too much affraid?)
    Myslel jsem......
    Někdy působíme věci, protože se je přílíš moc bojíme...Sometimes we cause things to happen, because we fear them too much.(It's a certain philosophy.. By always being afraid something will happen, constantly thinking about it, we unintentionally cause it to happen)
    ...Myslíme si, že se něco zlé asi stane, a nějak se stáva. (We are thinking somethink bad is gonna happend, and it is somehow happen...?)
    (We think something bad might happen, and somehow it happens.)
     
  11. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    "Někdy způsobíme věci, protože se jich přílíš moc bojíme"

    The verb is not semantically transitive (it has no object) but still it is transitive grammatically, the grammatical object is the pronoun "se" in accusative (direct object) and there are not many languages where a verb can have two direct objects (in Czech, there is only one such a verb...), so if there is a reflexive verb, you can be almost sure that if there is object, it would be indirect (i.e. not in accusative). That is why "bát se" goes with genitive (bát se + koho/čeho) and "zeptat se + koho/čeho + na koho/co" (ask + sb. + about st.).

    It is exactly the same as with the English verb "to content oneself with" which is also reflexive. The direct grammatical object is "oneself" and the other part has to be indirect (introduced by the preposition "with"). I am not sure about the semantics but still I deduce that the word "himself" does not really stands as a semantic object (as in other constructions with "oneself"), i.e.: that "myself" in "I content myself with it" is not really equal with "myself" in "I can control myself without difficulty".

    I hope it is more understandable when you see that a reflexive exists even in English.
     
  12. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Aha..děkuji ti mnohokrát eleshar.

    Je to jasnějši. Bojím se jích. Když jsem byl malý, bál jsem se jích, protože vypadali tak větši.

    To jsou otázky pro učitelky mluvnici.
    I do not know if...to control oneself...would be considered reflexive.
    Slovník říká ale, že je to ''intransitive'' slovesa.

    what follows a preposition, we would call an object of the preposition.
    We went to school with them.....Them is the object of the preposition with.
    My sister knows these things, ex english teacher. I will ask her.
     
  13. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    to control (oneself) is not reflexive (only with reflexive pronoun, but you can control anything), I mentioned it as an example of irreflexive verb in English which can adopt reflexive pronoun and compared it to a reflexive verb in English (to content oneself) which cannot exist without the reflexive pronoun.

    e.g.:
    control
    I control you/him/her/it/us/them/... /myself
    he controls me/you/him/her/... /himself
    ...
    plenty of possibilities - transitive verb which can adopt reflexive pronoun as its object. "to control oneself" is reciprocity, a kind of transitivity. One can design a diagram:
    Peter controls the situation - simple transitivity
    Code:
    Peter - agent
    |
    | controls - action
    |
    V
    the situation - patient
    Peter controls himself - reciprocal transitivity
    Code:
    Peter - agent AND patient
    |         A
    |         |
    |         |
    \_________/
    controls - action
    content oneself
    I content myself with...
    you content yourself with...
    he contents himself with...

    but not
    *he contents me with...
    *I content you with...

    only one single possibility - reflexive verb, as it cannot exist without the pronoun, which in turn does not serve as a real object (only as a grammatical one, so there can be no other direct object) of the verb (because it cannot be substituted by anything, it is integral part of the verb). I hope you feel as well that design a similar diagram for sentence "Peter contents himself with the situation" would be inapropriate (of course it is possible but there would be no reciprocity as in the former example)

    well... that depends - it can be indirect object or adverbial but I think it does not really matter. I tried to explain the reflexivity in your own language
     
  14. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Eleshar, check you presumptions before you start fabricate. The verb “content” does exist without the reflexive!
     
  15. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    I checked, of course, but I did not find :shock:
     
  16. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    ex: I am angry with him but he contents me with his kiss. (bookish, but possible)

    Common ex: I am content with my situation
    Are you content with my situation?
    He is content with my situation.

    Biblical ex: Philippians 4:12
    I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
     
  17. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    That’s good example.
    Sorry, these seem to be adjectives.
    I did, my very first dictionary says:

    content oneself with something … spokojit se s něčím
    content somebody (with something) ... uspokojit někoho něčím

    And with a little of googling I did find it in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, for example:

    content
    Function: transitive verb
    1 : to appease the desires of
    2 : to limit (oneself) in requirements, desires, or actions

    And with a little of additional googling I did find the English verb “content” is derived from the adjective “content” which is derived (via Middle English, Middle French and blah blah blah) from the past participle of the Latin verb “continere”. And that makes the verb “content” work as a factic aspectual counterpart of the English verb “contain” which is directly (via blah blah blah) derived from the identical verb.

    That means in Czech it more or less means:

    contain … obsahovat
    content … obsáhnout/naplnit → uspokojit
     
  18. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    I knew that "content" is an adjective, a substantive but never seen it as a verb without "oneself".

    Ok.

    Then, my elaborate example is completely screwed.
     
  19. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    You are right, they are adjectives. I didn't even think about it because that is the common way to use the word. In thinking about it, I would say that most Americans do not use this word as a verb. Like I said, it sounds bookish/poetic.
     
  20. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    It is a tricky example.
    Maybe we could find a better verb to use.

    That contents me.....Not used but possible..we would say that pleases me or
    That makes me content.
    Are you content,,,,yes, I am content
    When I am alone, I content myself with reading.
    He is a contented man.
    To mi naplní.
    Ja jsem spokojen.
    Jsem spokojený...obsahový můž.

    I think these might fall under reflexive.

    mýt....wash (something)(needs an object)
    mýt se....wash oneself...this can stand alone and be a complete sentence
    Mýju se.

    We can say
    I am eating(something)....without object this is incomplete sentgence
    or
    I am eating...complete statement...In this context it would have reflexive qualities....najím se

    I think english just does not make a distinction.
     

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