Locative of kočar

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Nicholas Hancock
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Locative of kočar

Postby Nicholas Hancock » 09-Aug-08 18:57

In Popelka I read 'Ujela ve svém kočaře'. Why is the locative not 'kočaru' as in 'hradu'?

Thanks

Nicholas
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Polednikova
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Postby Polednikova » 09-Aug-08 22:59

I'll be interested as well. Actually, I thought it would be kočári because the rules I've learned for vocative endings are:

1. h, ch, k, r, g + international words = u
2. l, s, z = e (ga=ze; ha=ze; cha=3e; ka=ce; ra=ře; ro=ře)
3. č, ě, ř, š, ž, d´, t´, c, j, fem/neuter e, -nost = i
4. b, d, f, m, n, p, t, v = ě
Karel_lerak
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Postby Karel_lerak » 10-Aug-08 0:21

Nicholas Hancock wrote:In Popelka I read 'Ujela ve svém kočaře'. Why is the locative not 'kočaru' as in 'hradu'?

Thanks

Nicholas

nom. hrad
gen. hradu, ostrova
det. hradu
acc. hrad
voc. hrade!, zámku!
loc. o hradu/hradě; o ostrově/ostrovu
inst. hradem

=> kočáru, kočáře

As you can see, both hradu/hradě is possible.
In one form there is hard consonant d, in the second a soft one ď. The root consonant changes from hard to soft.

The form na hradě is more common in Moravia, the form with u more common in Bohemia, but there is no general rule.
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Polednikova
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Postby Polednikova » 10-Aug-08 8:59

Ah. It's kočár, I was thinking it was kočář, which is why I thought the locative was kočáři.

So it's kočáru, but if you use the -e ending, you have to soften the r. Is that the same for all words ending in r? I'm trying to think of another example...

And Karel, thanks for explaining that ě is more common in Moravia and u in Bohemia, which is probably why whenever I used ě in class, my teacher would always say " but you can also use u", because that's what she would say.
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Postby wer » 10-Aug-08 11:03

Polednikova wrote:So it's kočáru, but if you use the -e ending, you have to soften the r. Is that the same for all words ending in r? I'm trying to think of another example...

It is not a general rule, some of the -e endings are hard, some soft. The standard model nouns are choosen to reflect all the differencies. Compare the vocative “hrade” and the locative “hradě”.

And Karel, thanks for explaining that ě is more common in Moravia and u in Bohemia, which is probably why whenever I used ě in class, my teacher would always say " but you can also use u", because that's what she would say.

There is more factors which influence the frequencies of doublet forms. The frequencies could be different for different dialects, for different styles, for different emotions, for different meanings of the words (“zámek” as “castle” × “zámek” as “lock”, “loket” as part of body × “loket” as unit of length), for different prepositions (o hradu × na hradě), for different meanings of one particular preposition (“v kočáře” as “by carriage” × “v kočáru” as “inside carriage”) etc.
Nicholas Hancock
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Postby Nicholas Hancock » 10-Aug-08 14:22

Thanks for the answer to my query about the locative kočaře. But can you please tell me what rules govern the changing of r to ř. I gather that followed by i it changes as in profesoři and kteři, but when followed by i, it doesn’t always change as in rigol.
Nicholas
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wer
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Postby wer » 10-Aug-08 15:03

Nicholas Hancock wrote:Thanks for the answer to my query about the locative kočáře.

You have either to write properly all the accents or none. The partial accentuation is misleading.
Last edited by wer on 10-Aug-08 15:07, edited 1 time in total.
wer
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Postby wer » 10-Aug-08 15:07

But can you please tell me what rules govern the changing of r to ř. I gather that followed by i it changes as in profesoři and kteří, but when followed by i, it doesn’t always change as in rigol.
Nicholas

“Rigol” follows the original French orthography.
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Postby Nicholas Hancock » 15-Aug-08 13:10

Thanks again. I'll try to be more careful!

Nicholas









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Nicholas Hancock
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Postby Nicholas Hancock » 15-Aug-08 13:13

Thanks. This service is fantastic.

Nicholas







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