Events of August 1968

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scrimshaw
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Postby scrimshaw » 04-Jun-08 0:03

Daniela Marie
Good for your daughter for wanting to take on such an international, profound subject.
If I can kind of use this to veer somewhat off topic.
Maybe I'm over generalizing, I don't know your daughter's teacher, but I have to say there is a definite trend.
Your daughter's teacher's suggestion, to me, seems so telling of the state of affairs of American academia.
Your daughter suggests a serious topic, concerning global politics, and her teacher immediately jumps to the version, well it's America's fault.
American academia is tilted so far to the left. They seem to march lock step to the theory that, if something is going wrong, certainly it must be America is somehow to blame.
This fact distresses me.
Good luck to your daughter, and thanks for letting me vent.
Jsem zvědav, jak by to vypadalo, kdybych byl přivolávačem deště. Jak by to vypadalo, kdybych uměl přivolat déšt'?
Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
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zavorka
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Postby zavorka » 04-Jun-08 8:49

I dont' agree with the oversimplification of finding a sacrifical victim, one is right and the other is wrong...
since Rashomon movie, there are many points of view, and nobody tells the true story.
the central EU was called "the international chess board",
I suggest that the move to leave the queen at the adversary was, at the end of the facts, very well played. It introduced a genralised, nationa lfeeling of adversion to soviets.
I don't know if there were other choices, if the queen cannot be saved, or if it was intentional.
If you are czech, you should also play well chesses. Yuo can understand the sacrifice of a your own item.

take care
miro
"and in the end all ends up to this: you do your things, don't look behind, and keep going" The White Squall.
scrimshaw
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Postby scrimshaw » 04-Jun-08 14:55

Rereading everything, I see I really did jump to conclusions.
So she goes to an international school in Rome.
So maybe the teacher was expressing the notion that it was impossible for the US, in that geo-political situation to do anything.
Russia asserting itself in it's sphere of influence.
Jsem zvědav, jak by to vypadalo, kdybych byl přivolávačem deště. Jak by to vypadalo, kdybych uměl přivolat déšt'?

Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
Petr_B
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Postby Petr_B » 04-Jun-08 20:54

scrimshaw wrote:Russia asserting itself in it's sphere of influence.


See, one may say it's all really the fault of the USA: who originally handed Czechoslovakia to J. Stalin on a silver plate? Yes, it was the 32nd President of the United States - F.D. Roosevelt (at the Yalta Conference and supposedly W. Churchill didn't like the idea). :wink:
Sure, things probably aren't as simple as that, but there might be some truth to it after all.
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kibicz
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Postby kibicz » 04-Jun-08 21:53

2 Petr_B:

First: Its our fault to let others treat us..
I need my czenglish corrected! (including this signature;)
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dzurisova
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Postby dzurisova » 05-Jun-08 20:10

Petr_B wrote: See, one may say it's all really the fault of the USA: who originally handed Czechoslovakia to J. Stalin on a silver plate? Yes, it was the 32nd President of the United States - F.D. Roosevelt (at the Yalta Conference and supposedly W. Churchill didn't like the idea). :wink:
Sure, things probably aren't as simple as that, but there might be some truth to it after all.


My husband agrees and fails to find any kind words when speaking of FDR. I don't know much about handing over Czechoslovakia, but I can't stand him just for his great idea of Social Security. :roll: :evil: -- nothing like saying "hey you people are too stupid to plan for your own future so the government is going to do it for you. But the retirement plan we have is so bad, we'll opt out of it while forcing you non-governmental pea-ons to do it" :evil: :evil:
Bůh ti žehnej
scrimshaw
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Postby scrimshaw » 05-Jun-08 21:56

Wow...this is a tough crowd.
Jsem zvědav, jak by to vypadalo, kdybych byl přivolávačem deště. Jak by to vypadalo, kdybych uměl přivolat déšt'?

Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
wer
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Postby wer » 06-Jun-08 0:15

dzurisova wrote:
Petr_B wrote: See, one may say it's all really the fault of the USA: who originally handed Czechoslovakia to J. Stalin on a silver plate? Yes, it was the 32nd President of the United States - F.D. Roosevelt (at the Yalta Conference and supposedly W. Churchill didn't like the idea). :wink:
Sure, things probably aren't as simple as that, but there might be some truth to it after all.


My husband agrees and fails to find any kind words when speaking of FDR. I don't know much about handing over Czechoslovakia, but I can't stand him just for his great idea of Social Security. :roll: :evil: -- nothing like saying "hey you people are too stupid to plan for your own future so the government is going to do it for you. But the retirement plan we have is so bad, we'll opt out of it while forcing you non-governmental pea-ons to do it" :evil: :evil:


Nothing like that happened at Yalta. It’s just a myth spread by communists to make the people in Soviet sphere of influence resigned to revolt. The only issue concerning Czechoslovakia discussed at Yalta was establishing of the UN.

The sphere of influence were firstly discussed at the Moscow conference between Stalin and Churchill (the famous percentages agreement). Roosevelt was absent. And again, Czechoslovakia was not mentioned at all.

The only Roosevelt’s war decision affecting the chances of Czechoslovakia to get out of Soviet sphere was the decision to invade Normandy and not Balkan as suggested by Churchill. I like the Churchill’s idea much more. The liberalization from the east parallelly with Soviets was the best way to prevent the spliting of Europe.

The American who definitely wrote the Czechoslovakia off was not Roosevelt, but Eisenhower. He was eager to conquer the imaginary Alpine fortress and stopped Patton to liberate Prague.

Three events were essential for Czechoslovak subjugation to the Soviets:

1) The ratification of the agreement about friendship between Czechoslovakia and Soviet Union (1941).

This was primarily British fault. Brits hesitated (and still hesitate) to acknowledge their failure at Munich and failed to fully recognize the Czechoslovak exil government in London. Czechoslovak government was more or less forced to buy the recognition at high costs from the Soviets.

2) The establishing of the National Front (March 1945), resp of the Government of Košice (April 1945) which was a totalitarian coalition of communistic and pro-communistic parties.

This was big failing of president Beneš. He underestimated the consequencies of the decision to form a government with communists. The democratic left wing was not able to manage the communists without the assistance of the banned rightwingers.

3) The subjugation of the Czech National Council (CNC) to the Government of Košice (May 1945).

This was the Eisenhower’s mistake. The CNC was a democratic body which governed the Prague uprising. It was the last democratic institution to resist effectively the Government of Košice. With Patton in Prague the CNC could hold out, but without any support it was quickly managed by the Red Army which installed the Government of Košice.


The western recognition of 1946 undemocratic election was only a formal nail in the coffin.
wer
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Postby wer » 06-Jun-08 0:33

zavorka wrote:…and how was that nobody could control the air space…

Consider the Soviets invaded a Soviet controlled country.
…and to remain surprised at night for the landing?

It was surprising only for the people. The government and army were aware of such a possibility. They even prevented the first attempt on invasion.
even Yugoslavia, considered on a neutral position, did not take contacts for advising the reformists...

Czechoslovak government was in close contact with the governments of Yugoslavia, Romania and Canada.
Yugoslavia even mobilized in support of Czechoslovakia.
Petr_B
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Postby Petr_B » 06-Jun-08 8:13

While Czechoslovakia might not be directly mentioned in the text of the Yalta Conference (as we aren't that important to be mentioned specifically), I believe the outcome of the Yalta Conference significantly affected CE/EE region as a whole. And (Czechoslovak) communists probably weren't the only ones to think like that:
The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition wrote:The subsequent outbreak of the cold war and Soviet successes in Eastern Europe led to much criticism in the United States of the Yalta Conference and of Roosevelt, who was accused of delivering Eastern Europe to Communist domination.

Source: http://www.bartleby.com/65/ya/YaltaCon.html, link is referenced from Microsoft Encarta article about the Yalta Conference so it should be somewhat credible.

Anyway, everything is connected and we could go even further back and blame those who let Hitler into power, starting with rather unfortunate Treaty or Versailles. Or we can dig even deeper and go to reasons why WWI (which changed the map of Europe and allowed communists to reign Russia) started. And so on and so on. There's always someone or something outside the Czechs I can put the blame on (see Czech C's thread). :)

We can also cry rivers and say that because we are such small country in an important region it's always O nás bez nás ([Deciding] About Us [Czechs] Without Us [Czechs]). Kdo chce psa bít, hůl si vždycky najde. :wink:

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