Hi again, I was taking a look at an article I found in a Czech magazine and I came across the following sentence: "Děčín je nejníže položeným městem v České republice, pouhých 135 metrů nad mořem, přesto má až horský charakter" I would translate the above as: "Děčín lies in the lowest depression in the Czech Republic at barely 135 meters above sea level although (dispite this) it has a mountainous nature" BUT could someone please explain the following construction to me? Děčín je nejníže položeným městem" Why the 7th case? One more question: What's the actual meaning of "až" in přesto má až horský charakter. Děkuju Lorenzo [This message has been edited by Lorenzo (edited May 01, 2003).]
The (Czech) grammar construction "X je (byl, bude) Y" is called "jmenný přísudek se sponou" (nominal predicate with copula). The predicate is either 1) in the nominative (1st) case: the predicate is constant (invariable, permanent) e.g. Tygr je šelma kočkovitá. (feline) or 2) in the instrumental (7th) case: the predicate is acquired and/or (potentially) temporary (transient) e.g. Bratr je učitelem. In practice, usually, it is not so critical: Děčín je město v severních Čechách. (nom.) Děčín je krásné město. (nom.) Děčín je průmyslovým centrem severních Čech. (instr.) Děčín je nejníže položeným městem v ČR. (instr.) BTW, your translation is not strictly speaking correct. The Czech sentence does not imply that Děčín lies in the lowest depression in the Czech Republic. The lowest depression in the Czech Republic is, naturally, the Elbe river on the border with Germany. [This message has been edited by Bohaemus (edited May 22, 2003).]
Hi Bohaemus, Thank you a lot for your explanation! Still there's something that's not clear to me. So, when the predicate is in the 7th case what does it mean? Does it act a substitute for a preposition? Because I would expect the predicate to take the 7th case if it comes after a preposition. What's the meaning of "Bratr je učitelem"? "My brother is with the teacher"? I'm a little in the dark here... What I don't understand is the need to use the 7th case in certain sentences. What's the difference between "Děčín je průmyslovým centrem severních Čech." and "Děčín je průmyslové centrum v severních Čechách"?. As for my translation, I wasn't actually completely sure about it. I would tend to think that Děčín is the lowest located town in the Czech Republic as there are no towns in the depression of the Elbe river. Is it so? I'm still curious about the use of "až" in the other sentence... Ještě jednou děkuju! Lorenzo [This message has been edited by Lorenzo (edited May 03, 2003).]
Hi! When the predicate is in the 1st case, it expresses a substantial (fundamental) quality of the subject of the sentence. When the predicate is in the 7th case (with NO preposition), it expresses an acquired and transient quality of the subject. "Bratr je učitelem" means "My brother is a teacher" (acquired and possibly transient quality). More examples: A) (nom. is necessary) Velryba není ryba. Transformátor je netočivý elektrický stroj. Praha je krásné město. Eva je mladá dívka. (it seems to be rather transient, but the nom. is necessary!) B) (instr. is necessary) Eva je žákyní naší školy. Otec je členem spolku chovatelů holubů. Václav Havel již není prezidentem ČR. Praha je politickým, kulturním a průmyslovým centrem ČR. (it seems to be rather permanent, but instr. is convenient if not necessary) Also: Hudba je mu vším (instr. of "vše").
AŽ: ... přesto má až horský character = přesto má téměř horský character (= "nearly, almost", in this context). [This message has been edited by Bohaemus (edited May 09, 2003).]
Hi Lorenzo, Here are just a few notes to add to Bohaemus' excellent response. The translation of your sentence is as follows: "Děčín is the lowest situated town in the Czech Republic, located only 135 meters above sea level, and yet it has an almost mountainous nature/character." To shed some more light on the constant vs. acquired/transient nature of the predicate. As Bohaemus described, the nominative is used when expressing an inherent, permanent quality of the predicate: "Velryba není ryba." (The whale is not a fish.) This is a generally accepted fact, the way things are, something that is not changeable. If you (wrongly) said "Velryba není rybou", it would sound like the whale is not a fish today but may be a fish tomorrow. The instrumental is used to signify an acquired (it became that way) or transient (temporary) quality of the predicate that can depend upon other factors: "Petr je učitelem." (Petr is a teacher.) He's a teacher because he decided to become one. He may change his profession later. "Děčín je nejníže položeným městem." (Děčín is the lowest situated town.) It is that way because there are no other towns that are situated lower. This can potentially change if another town appears in a lower location. Similarly: "Děčín je město v severních Čechách." (Děčín is a town in Northern Bohemia.) - this is a fact "Děčín je průmyslovým centrem severních Čech." (Děčín is the industrial center of Northern Bohemia.) - it is so as a result of its industrial activity and in comparison to other towns. This may change in the future and depends on various factors (another town will surpass Děčín or Děčín will reduce its industrial production). You asked what the difference is between "Děčín je průmyslovým centrem severních Čech" and "Děčín je průmyslové centrum v severních Čechách". There is not much difference in the end result of this statement, which simply says that Děčín is an industrial town in Norhtern Bohemia. The subtle difference lies in the perception of Děčín's importance in this role. The first sentence that uses the instrumental makes Děčín sound like it is THE industrial center of N.B. - the main or only such center (again, as a result of.., compared to..., not necessarily forever). The second sentence with the nominative sounds more like Děčín is AN industrial center in N.B. (it's a fact) and there may be other towns like it. Sometimes the difference between using the nominative versus instrumental is so subtle that it is possible and not grammatically incorrect to use them interchangeably.
Ještě jeden příklad s nominativem: Dana je rozená učitelka. Addendum to the nominal predicates: The bare adjective in the nominal predicate is always in the nominative case. E.g. Jsem zvědavý. ("Jsem zvědavým" is wrong) Ta kniha je zajímavá. Petr byl překvapen. To bude dobré.
Výborně! Thank you a lot, Dana and Vladimír! It's so much clear now! You have been very clear and specific! Taky myslím, že Dana je rozená učitelka a měla napsat českou učebnici a jsem si jistý, že by byla výborná kniha! zajisté bych ji koupil! Teď mám ještě jednou otázku... Is it also possible to use the istrumental with negative sentenses? "Bratr není učitelem" because he didn't want to become one or he's not one yet but maybe in this latter case it would be better to say "Bratr ještě není učitelem"? Děkuju mockrát! Lorenzo
