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the differences between na, pro, za, v/ve?
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scrimshaw
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Joined: 31 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 13-Aug-09 17:44  Reply with quote

Modlil jsem se k bohovi, aby můj pes neumřel.
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Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
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phi11ip
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 67
Location: Nottingham, UK

PostPosted: 14-Aug-09 10:33  Reply with quote

wer wrote:


Have a look at http://www.wordreference.com/encz which explains most of the meanings with examples.


Thanks for that link. What a wonderful resource, and its not even complete yet!
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grrritsczech
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Joined: 02 Aug 2009
Posts: 7
Location: Prague

PostPosted: 16-Aug-09 14:13  Reply with quote

Wow. first, i'd like to thank you all for such detailed, and quick answers! now, to get onto business:


Alexx wrote:
Post the exercise if you can.


so, here is only the exercise:

1.Čestina je ...... nád dost těžka.
2.Autobus může přijet až ...... osm hodin.
3. Kabát máš asi ...... skříni.
4. Tu mapu můžete dát ...... tabuli.
5.Půjdu ještě ...... Petra a pak půjdeme spolu ...... oběd.
6. Nevíš, kde je můj sešit ...... gramatiku?
7. Mohu ...... tebe něco udělat?
8. Večer se budu procházet ...... parku?
9. Mám dopis ...... Tomáše.
10. Nepůjdeš odpoledne ...... poštu?
11. Odpolední vyučování bude ..... učebně nahoře.
12. ...... stole máte jen papír a tužku.
13....... ucebnici jsou texty a cvičení.
14. Koupím taky dárky ...... sestru a ...... bratra.
15.Musíš přijet brzo, budu ...... tebe čekat.
16. Petr si ....... obchodě vybírá zimní kabát.
17. Sedím vpředu, protože chci dobře vidět..... tabuli.
18. Ještě tady není, vrátí se ...... chvíli.
19. Přijdeme asi ...... dvě hodiny.

and here is what i did during class, where i most likely got all of them wrong, and the ones i got right were either from guessing, or just hearing the answers being called too quickly around me:

1.Čestina je PRO nád dost těžka.
2.Autobus může přijet až NA osm hodin.
3. Kabát máš asi NAskříni.
4. Tu mapu můžete dát NA tabuli.
5.Půjdu ještě PRO Petra a pak půjdeme spolu NA oběd.
6. Nevíš, kde je můj sešit PRO gramatiku?
7. Mohu NA tebe něco udělat?
8. Večer se budu procházet ...... parku?
9. Mám dopis ...... Tomáše.
10. Nepůjdeš odpoledne NA poštu?
11. Odpolední vyučování bude ..... učebně nahoře.
12. NA stole máte jen papír a tužku.
13. V ucebnici jsou texty a cvičení.
14. Koupím taky dárky PRO sestru a PRO bratra.
15.Musíš přijet brzo, budu NA tebe čekat.
16. Petr si ....... obchodě vybírá zimní kabát.
17. Sedím vpředu, protože chci dobře vidět..... tabuli.
18. Ještě tady není, vrátí se ...... chvíli.
19. Přijdeme asi ...... dvě hodiny.

BUT if i am using your lovely examples (thank you) would they be:

1.Čestina je ...... nád dost těžka...(er, i actually still don't know how to answer this..)
2.Autobus může přijet až v osm hodin.
3. Kabát máš asi ve skříni.
4. Tu mapu můžete dát na tabuli.
5.Půjdu ještě pro Petra a pak půjdeme spolu pro oběd.
6. Nevíš, kde je můj sešit na gramatiku?(im just guessing here because it sounds right)
7. Mohu za tebe něco udělat?
8. Večer se budu procházet v parku?
9. Mám dopis pro Tomáše.
10. Nepůjdeš odpoledne na poštu? (here, again im just guessing)
11. Odpolední vyučování bude v učebně nahoře.
12. Na stole máte jen papír a tužku.
13. V ucebnici jsou texty a cvičení.
14. Koupím taky dárky pro sestru a pro bratra.
15.Musíš přijet brzo, budu na tebe čekat.
16. Petr si v obchodě vybírá zimní kabát.
17. Sedím vpředu, protože chci dobře vidět na tabuli.
18. Ještě tady není, vrátí se ve chvíli. (???)
19. Přijdeme asi ..... dvě hodiny. (???)

i felt a little more confident this time with the excercise, but if you could, it would be nice if you could point out my mistakes, and explain(if possible) the right answer Smile



meluzina wrote:
i know i'm not explaining this too well

well, actually i'd like to say that what you said was also very helpful! little americanisms (my home english language) were very simple, but insightful, and helped a little more Smile so thank you:)

wer wrote:
The prepositions are always tricky. Is English your only language? It could be easier to learn the Czech prepositons based on the knowledge of another language, German for instance.


Yes, and ..no. English isn't my only language in the way that i can speak others fluently, mainly japanese, but English is the only language i have a grasp on the grammar. (all i know of japanese grammar is that the sentence formation is basically the opposite) i have to admit that your explanation, although wonderfully detailed, and techincall, was a little harder for me to understand. but i think i got your general gist. The different cases, and knowing what prepositions go with each case, and what they mean in other cases, is important to knowing when and where to use, and what there meaning is in each sentence? that it is basically all relative?
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Eleshar
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PostPosted: 16-Aug-09 15:17  Reply with quote

grrritsczech wrote:
and here is what i did during class, where i most likely got all of them wrong, and the ones i got right were either from guessing, or just hearing the answers being called too quickly around me:

1.Čestina je PRO nád dost těžka.
2.Autobus může přijet až V1 osm hodin.
3. Kabát máš asi NAskříni.2
4. Tu mapu můžete dát NA tabuli.
5.Půjdu ještě PRO Petra, a pak půjdeme spolu NA oběd.
6. Nevíš, kde je můj sešit NA gramatiku?
7. Mohu PRO tebe něco udělat3?
8. Večer se budu procházet PO/V parku?
9. Mám dopis PRO/OD Tomáše4.
10. Nepůjdeš odpoledne NA poštu?
11. Odpolední vyučování bude V učebně nahoře.
12. NA/VE stole máte jen papír a tužku. 5
13. V učebnici jsou texty a cvičení.
14. Koupím taky dárky PRO sestru a PRO bratra.
15.Musíš přijet brzo, budu NA tebe čekat.
16. Petr si V obchodě vybírá zimní kabát.
17. Sedím vpředu, protože chci dobře vidět NA tabuli.
18. Ještě tady není, vrátí se ZA chvíli.
19. Přijdeme asi ZA/NA dvě hodiny.6


1 - still, you are close.. one can say "autobus přijel na osmou hodinu" with the same meaning; moreover, "přijet na osm hodin" is correct as well, but it means "to come and stay for eight hours" and does not make much sense with "až"

2 - theoretically correct, although it would mean "the coat is on the wardrobe" not "in the wardrobe"; the latter would be "ve skříni"

3 - "udělat něco na někoho" seems to mean "to do something in somebody's stead but pretend together that it is he who did it" (and some different quite vulgar meanings come to my mind as well)

4 - pro Tomáše = for Tomáš; od Tomáše = from Tomáš

5 - "ve stole" is another possibility with the meaning "in the table" (in a drawer, obviously)

6 - za dvě hodiny = after two hours; na dvě hodiny = for two hours; it is also possible in the example 1Cool above but "na chvíli" does not make sense with the first phrase of the example.

Quote:
5.Půjdu ještě pro Petra a pak půjdeme spolu pro oběd.

"jít pro oběd" is also possible (did not come to my mind) and it means "to fetch dinner" or something (to go, buy it and bring it home or to work)

Quote:
7. Mohu za tebe něco udělat?

also possible, however improbable, it would mean "can I do something insted of you?"

The second attempt seems to be better than the first but compare it with my corrections.
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wer
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PostPosted: 16-Aug-09 17:39  Reply with quote

grrritsczech wrote:
1.Čestina je ...... nás dost těžká.
2.Autobus může přijet až ...... osm hodin.

I dislike this kind of exercises. There is often more options with different meanings.

Quote:

1.Čestina je PRO (correct)s dost těžká.
1.Čestina je ...... nás dost těžká...(er, i actually still don't know how to answer this..)

Czech is pretty difficult for us.
Quote:
2.Autobus může přijet až NA (incorrect) osm hodin.
2.Autobus může přijet až v (correct) osm hodin.


Let’s simplify it a little to “Autobus může přijet … osm hodin.”

Autobus může přijet v osm hodin.
=
Bus can arrive at eight o'clock.


Autobus může přijet za osm hodin.
=
Bus can arrive in eight hours.




The “až” in the original means “only, not (prior/till)” and leads to some loose translation like:

Bus can’t arrive till eight o'clock.
Bus can’t arrive in less than (…sooner than in) eight hours.

Quote:
3. Kabát máš asi NA (correct, but unlikely anticipated by the authors) skříni.
3. Kabát máš asi ve (correct) skříni.


ve skříni = in the wardrobe
na skříni = on the wardrobe (possibly on the top of the wardrobe, or hanging on the wardrobe)

Quote:
4. Tu mapu můžete dát NA (correct) tabuli.


or “za/před/pod/nad/k tabuli” (= behind/in front of/under/above/to the blackboard)

Quote:
5.Půjdu ještě PRO (correct) Petra a pak půjdeme spolu NA (correct) oběd.
5.Půjdu ještě pro (correct) Petra a pak půjdeme spolu pro (correct) oběd.


na oběd = for lunch (= to have a lunch)
pro oběd = for lunch (= to obtain/get/buy a lunch)

Quote:
6. Nevíš, kde je můj sešit PRO (incorrect) gramatiku?
6. Nevíš, kde je můj sešit na (correct) gramatiku?

Quote:
7. Mohu NA (incorrect) tebe něco udělat?
7. Mohu za (correct, but unlikely anticipated by the authors) tebe něco udělat?


pro tebe = for you (= for your benefit, to help you)
za tebe = instead of you

Quote:
8. Večer se budu procházet ...... parku?
8. Večer se budu procházet v (correct) parku?

v parku = in the park
po parku = about/around the park

Quote:
9. Mám dopis ...... Tomáše.
9. Mám dopis pro (correct) Tomáše.


Quote:
10. Nepůjdeš odpoledne NA (correct) poštu?
10. Nepůjdeš odpoledne na (correct) poštu? (here, again im just guessing)

na poštu = to the post office
pro poštu = for mail (= to collect the mail)

Quote:
11. Odpolední vyučování bude ..... učebně nahoře.
11. Odpolední vyučování bude v (correct) učebně nahoře.

Quote:
12. NA (correct) stole máte jen papír a tužku.

na stole = on the table
ve stole = in the table

Quote:
13. V (correct) učebnici jsou texty a cvičení.

v učebnici = in the textbook
na učebnici = (placed) on the (top of the) textbook

Quote:
14. Koupím taky dárky PRO (correct) sestru a PRO (correct) bratra.

pro bratra/sestru = for brother/sister (= they are the recipients)
za bratra/sestru = instead (on behalf) of brother/sister
Quote:
15.Musíš přijet brzo, budu NA (correct) tebe čekat.

čekat na tebe = wait for you
(čekat u tebe = wait at your place)

Quote:
16. Petr si v (correct) obchodě vybírá zimní kabát.
17. Sedím vpředu, protože chci dobře vidět na (correct) tabuli.
18. Ještě tady není, vrátí se ve (incorrect) chvíli.

za chvíli = in a moment
Quote:
19. Přijdeme asi ...... dvě hodiny.

ve dvě hodiny = at two o'clock
za dvě hodiny = in/after two hours
na dvě hodiny = (to stay) for two hours

Quote:
Yes, and ..no. English isn't my only language in the way that i can speak others fluently, mainly japanese, but English is the only language i have a grasp on the grammar. (all i know of japanese grammar is that the sentence formation is basically the opposite)

Japan is of no use here, I guess.

Quote:
but i think i got your general gist. The different cases, and knowing what prepositions go with each case, and what they mean in other cases, is important to knowing when and where to use, and what there meaning is in each sentence? that it is basically all relative?

My point is that you can’t learn the Czech prepositions by learning what Czech prepositions stays for what English preposition. This leads only to a giant guesswork as a single Czech prepositon could correspond to many English prepositions.

Consider the Czech prepositon “za” which could stay for English:

behind
beyond
over
inside/outside
in
per
within
a
past
for
instead of
in place of
on behalf of
as
in exchange for
after
under
while
when
during
to
abaft


To make some sense of it, you have to separate all the meanings and the usage with different cases:

in the era of (i.e. under, while, when) → za + genitive
instead of (+ in place of, on behalf of, as) → za + accusative
for each (i.e. for, per, a, in) → za + accusative


And my second point was you should start with spatial prepositions because they tend to have similar usage with the same cases. For example all the spatial prepositions “před, za, nad, pod” (= in front of, behind, above, under) use the same cases in the same way. They use instrumental for location:

   Je to před (za, nad, pod) stolem.
     =
   It is in front of (behind, above, under) the table.

And accusative with direction:

   Dej to před (za, nad, pod) stůl.
     =
   Give it in front of (behind, above, under) the table.
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grrritsczech
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PostPosted: 04-Sep-09 16:53  Reply with quote

thank you so much for you help : )
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rsalc1
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PostPosted: 10-Sep-09 19:07  Reply with quote

wer wrote:

Quote:
5.Půjdu ještě PRO (correct) Petra a pak půjdeme spolu NA (correct) oběd.
5.Půjdu ještě pro (correct) Petra a pak půjdeme spolu pro (correct) oběd.


Aha, I have seen similar exercises in my workbook.
Here the author is looking for "na oběd" as the correct answer. Smile
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Eleshar
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PostPosted: 10-Sep-09 19:26  Reply with quote

Well... as Wer said and I implied, it is very often possible that more options are correct, and if you noticed, even native speakers sometimes can't list all of them because they are so many with so different (and sometimes obscure but correct nonetheless) meanings. If you have teacher to check the exercise with and explain the possibilites, it can be done, but for a self-learner, it is completely useless.
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grrritsczech
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PostPosted: 12-Sep-09 15:02  Reply with quote

well, i have a teacher for czech, and she does explain everthing, but always explains it in czech (as she should) but because of that i don't always understand the nitty-gritty details. i understand it will take much time to get grip on the prepositions, but still, seeing i think that everyone's answers on this post has helped me : )
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Ctyri koruny
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PostPosted: 28-Sep-09 17:02  Reply with quote

prepositions have no translation Sad
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