classification of rad and sam

Discussion in 'Grammar & Pronunciation' started by Wicker808, Apr 27, 2004.

  1. Wicker808

    Wicker808 Well-Known Member

    Here is another question. Into what grammatical category can we place the words "sam" and "rad?"

    "Sam" seems to be have like an adverb, except for the unique property that it conjugates according to gender and number of subject, unlike most adverbs. But it takes endings of passive participle, not adjective.

    "Rad" is more complicated.

    Rad lyzuju.
    Budu rad, kdyz...
    Mam te rad.
    Radsi bych sel sam.

    Could we say that "rad" is an adverb, meaning "gladly?" Or is it more like a helping verb, modifying the meaning of the main verb? And of course "mit rad" is a special case. I have heard that "mit rad" is a separate verb from "mit." Does that mean that "lyzovat rad" is also a separate verb from "lyzovat?"

    Also notice the stupnovani of rad. I believe it can procede as either radsi/nejradsi or radeji/nejradeji, and these forms are the equivelent. Can we apply a similar rule to sam? If sam is in fact an adverb, it would suggest that yes.

    (?) Byl jsem doma samsi/sameji nez ty.

    So... while sam can maybe be an adverb, albeit a very exceptional one, rad remains a mystery. How can we classify it grammatically?
     
  2. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    The words "sám/sama/samo/sami/etc." are reflexive pronouns, which means (depending on context) "myself," "yourself," "himself," "herself," "ourselves," etc. They decline in the same situations as other pronouns: e.g. "On sedí sám s sebou" ("sebou" is the instrumental form of "sám").

    I think the words "rád/ráda/rádi" can be either adjective or adverb, depending on the usage. As an adjective, it agrees with gender and number, "Mám tĕ rád(a)", "Máme tĕ rádi." In the adverb case, I don't think it declines at all. Perhaps a native Czech could point out the distinction more clearly. The constructs "-ši" and "-eji/-ĕji" are comparative forms of adjectives and adverbs, respectively (e.g. "happier", "more happily"). The prefix "nej-" used with the comparative ending forms the superlative ("happiest", "most happily"). The constructs you proposed "sámši" and "samĕji" do not exist, as "sám" is not an adverb.
     
  3. Wicker808

    Wicker808 Well-Known Member

    Sova. I respectfully disagree. Consider:

    Mam te rad.

    The subject is ja. If we accept that rad is an adjective it modifies the subject. I don't think that makes sense. Or conisder that if it were an adjective, it would need to reflect grammatical case:

    OK: Neco spatneho se stalo.
    WRONG: Neco radeho se stalo.
    OK: Rado to se stalo.

    So, while it agrees with the subject, it doesn't agree according with adjective endings.

    Regarding sam. You make a good point that they are pronouns, but I think I should add that in that case they'd be adjectival reflexive pronouns in their reduced forms (annalogous to stastny - stasten). In which case the instrumental form of sam would be samym, samou, samymi.

    Zabyval jsem se samymi blbostmi.

    But the usage is still odd. As far as I know, you can't apply the same rule annalogously to other reduced form adjectives:

    WRONG On sedi stasten s Janem.
    OK On sedi sam s sebou.

    So, if they're adjectives, they're adjectives with bizarre special properties.
    Also, you indicate incorrectly that sebou is the instrumental form of sam. The accusitive form of sebou is se/sebe, and there is no nominative form. So while sam and sebou may be related, I disagree that they are different case forms of the same adjective.
     
  4. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    The construct "Mám tě rád(a)" can be thought of as adjectival if phrased as follows: "Jsem rád(a), že tě mám." This is the only way I can account for the necessary agreement with number and gender, as adverbs can not agree with subject in number and gender since they modify verbs, not nouns. The idea is that I am glad (hence glad modifies the word I, which is indeed the subject). Yes, I agree that the word "rád" does not follow the standard convention of adjectives and adjectival endings. Perhaps it is either a shortened or irregular form. Note, Seznam slovnik does translate "rád" as either "glad" (adj) or "gladly" (adv), which I think supports my point. It would be nice if a native Czech would weigh in on this, as I am not completely sure of this myself.

    As for the phrase you used, "se samými blbostmi," the word you used here "samý" is different from "sám" in that there is no connection with "self" in this word. The meaning of "samý" in this phrase is superlative: "very" or "utter."

    "Zabyval jsem se samými blbostmi" = "I spent my time on utter idiocy."

    Another example, "v samém středu" meaning "in the very center." In short, the word "sám" is indeed a reflexive pronoun, not adjectival in any sense. My Russian wife confirms that this is the case is Russian as well.
     
  5. Bohaemus

    Bohaemus Well-Known Member

    Sám, sama, samo/samý, samá, samé is the demonstrative pronoun (as latin ipse, ipsa, ipsum).

    Rád, ráda, rádo is the adjective (as mlád, mláda, mládo).

    There is the category "adiectivalia" (i.e. adjectives in broad sense - can express three genders), which is the superset of the following categories:
    - adjectives
    - some pronouns e.g. ten, ta, to, sám, sama, samo, který, která, které, ...
    - some numerals e.g. jeden, jedna, jedno, první, ...
    - participles e.g. nesen, nesena, neseno, nesl, nesla, neslo, ...

    Sometimes you confuse the word category and the role of words in sentences.
    The adjective (and adiectivale) can be podmět (subject), přívlastek (attribute), doplněk (verbal attribute), etc.

    E.g. rád/sám is doplněk in the following sentences :

    Čtu rád cestopisy. Pocestný šel sám.
    K večeru rádo prší. Na dobrém poli roste samo.

    Doplněk (praedicativum - verbal attribute) refers to the subject (is similar to přívlastek of the subject), but indirectly through the verb.

    Po cestě šel bosý chlapec. - bosý is přívlastek.
    Chlapec šel bos. - bos is doplněk.
     

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