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končí vs přestává
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wer
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Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 1700
Location: East Bohemia

PostPosted: 03-Jan-10 14:31  Reply with quote

Ctyri koruny wrote:
Direct object vs. indirect, you are not gramatically inept you allready know all about it with "vědět" vs. "znát" Smile

Direct and indirect object in Czech is somehow quirky concept, better to not to use it in relation to Czech.

I guess scrimshaw tries to point out the difference in focus, that is that “to say” means primarily “to express something” and could be eventually extended with information about the recipient while “to tell” means primarily “to inform somebody” and could be eventually extended with information about the matter.

What do you mean with "vědět" vs. "znát"? The verbs differ primarily in meaning.

scrimshaw wrote:
To je dobré (or: jsou dobrá) vysvětlení.

Myslím si, že to chápu.

Přestal pracovat, protože měl schůzku se šéfem. Budu muset do[s]končit svou práci doma. Došel k šéfově kanceláři včas, ale šéf tam nebyl. Je rozhněvaný, protože celá věc byla ztráta času.
Nejhorší je, že zmeškal vlak, a teď nebude doma včas k večeři.
Otevřel noviny a začal číst zajímavý článek, ale dřív, než jej mohl dočíst, přijel ke stanici vlak. Nastoupil do něj a sedl si vedle okna (k oknu).
Slunce už zapadalo (← to slunce).
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Ctyri koruny
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PostPosted: 03-Jan-10 17:59  Reply with quote

Quote:


What do you mean with "vědět" vs. "znát"? The verbs differ primarily in meaning.


They both mean know. For you maybe they have two different meanings but for me they have the same meaning except I must say

Vím, že Igor je opily. - I know that ( vím, kdo je igor - I know who igor is.)
Znám Igora. - I know

Difference = direct / indirect object, isn't it?



Quote:

I guess scrimshaw tries to point out the difference in focus, that is that “to say” means primarily “to express something” and could be eventually extended with information about the recipient while “to tell” means primarily “to inform somebody” and could be eventually extended with information about the matter.

No because

"I said to Jane (that) I was tired"
and
"I told Jane (that) I was tired"

Have the same meaning and the same focus - I informed Jane I was tired.
No concrete difference in meaning, just grammar.
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scrimshaw
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PostPosted: 03-Jan-10 23:52  Reply with quote

Sláva!!
Poslední příběh měl chyby, ale byly chyby jen v pravopisu.
Podařilo se mi vybrat si spravné slovesa.

schůska
číst
ztrátit
článek
šéf
kancelář

Nesouhlasím.....tell and say are not interchangeable, but they are very similar.

'tell' can be translated I think easily to 'vyprávět'
Vyprávěl jsem děšívý příběh....Vyprávěl jsem mu o tom, co se stalo.

'say' can maybe be translated as 'pronést'.
Žádná pravdivější slova nikdy nebyla pronesena.
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Jsem zvědav, jak by to vypadalo, kdybych byl přivolávačem deště. Jak by to vypadalo, kdybych uměl přivolat déšt'?
Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
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TomKQT
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PostPosted: 04-Jan-10 7:47  Reply with quote

Ctyri koruny wrote:

They both mean know. For you maybe they have two different meanings but for me they have the same meaning except I must say

The fact that two words are translated as the same word in other language doesn't imply they have to have the same meaning in the first language, too Wink
Vědět and znát are quite close in meaning, but you usually can use only one of them in a particular case.
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wer
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PostPosted: 04-Jan-10 8:43  Reply with quote

Ctyri koruny wrote:
They both mean know. For you maybe they have two different meanings but for me they have the same meaning except I must say

Vím, že Igor je opily. - I know that ( vím, kdo je igor - I know who igor is.)
Znám Igora. - I know

Difference = direct / indirect object, isn't it?


  Znám to. = I know it.
  Vím to. = I know it.
  Umím to. = I know it.

Difference as for the grammar? None — everything is plain accusative (One could say direct object if there would be some reasonable definition for it in Czech.), isn’t it?

Difference as for the meaning? Enormous:

  Znám to. = I’m familiar with it.
  Vím to. = I’m aware of that fact.
  Umím to. = I’m able to do it. / I can do it.

Quote:
Sláva!!
Poslední příběh měl chyby, ale byly to chyby jen v pravopisu. (…ale byly to jen pravopisné chyby. /…ale jen pravopisné.)
Podařilo se mi vybrat si spravná slovesa.

schůzka (← schůze ← scházet se ← chodit)
číst
ztratit
článek
šéf
kancelář

Nesouhlasím.....tell and say are not interchangeable, but they are very similar.

'tell' can be translated I think easily to 'vyprávět'
Vyprávěl jsem děsívý (← děs/děsit) příběh....Vyprávěl jsem mu o tom, co se stalo.

'say' can maybe be translated as 'pronést'.
Žádná pravdivější slova nikdy nebyla pronesena.

vyprávět = to narrate
pronést = to deliver (a speech)
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Ctyri koruny
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PostPosted: 05-Jan-10 9:47  Reply with quote

[quote="wer"]
Ctyri koruny wrote:
They both mean know. For you maybe they have two different meanings but for me they have the same meaning except I must say

Vím, že Igor je opily. - I know that ( vím, kdo je igor - I know who igor is.)
Znám Igora. - I know

Difference = direct / indirect object, isn't it?


Quote:

  Znám to. = I know it.
  Vím to. = I know it.
  Umím to. = I know it.


You are right, it is not related to direct/indirect object as I thought.

For me Umím is more like "to know off". Phrasal verb. Different completely from Know.
Am I wrong?

Quote:

Difference as for the grammar? None — everything is plain accusative (One could say direct object if there would be some reasonable definition for it in Czech.), isn’t it?

There's no difference in grammar!? So I can say Znám že Igor. Can I? I can say Vím Igor!? Really!?

Quote:

  Znám to. = I’m familiar with it.
  Vím to. = I’m aware of that fact.




Hmmmm... Is it something like...
P: The bathroom is over there
R: I know (that (piece of information)). Vím to
vs.
R: I know (it(,the bathroom, personally)). Znám to
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wer
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Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 05-Jan-10 15:12  Reply with quote

Ctyri koruny wrote:
For me Umím is more like "to know off". Phrasal verb. Different completely from Know.
Am I wrong?

I can’t say. What does “to know off” mean?


OK, another attempt.

VĚDĚT expresses a discrete state of awareness of the truth of something, so its object is always a logical statement. The object is in accusative. There is only a few single words which could describe a full logical statement, so the object is mostly expressed using an object clause. Some of the single words are pronouns:

  vím to (vím to, že = vím, že)
  vím něco
  vím vše
  nevím nic

A possible single noun could be the noun “truth” itself:

  vím pravdu = I know the truth

You even can give a name to the logical statement, like in mathematics, let’s say the statement X, and to say:

  vím X

It is absurd, but you can even choose the name “Igor” for it and to say:

  vím Igor

or more naturally, if you want to treat the statement as an animate object,

  vím Igora

Etymologically, “vědět” is cognate to “vidět” (and Latin “video”, German “wissen” and English “wise”) which could be of some help to you — think of the English usage of “to see” for “to know”.



UMĚT expresses a skill, an ability, a practical knowledge. In English you mostly use “I can” or “I am able to”, but sometimes also “I know”:

  umím psát = I can read (I know how to read)
  umím (mluvit) anglicky = I know English, I can speak English

With accusative object it means “to know” as “to have fixed in mind for a practical use”:

  umím slovíčka na zkoušku = I know the vocabulary for my exam

  umím angličtinu = I know English (not that I can speak it, but I know it as the subject matter for my exam)

  umím báseň = I know a poem (well enough to recite it!)

  umím Romea = I know Romeo (= I can play the part of Romeo in Romeo and Juliet.)

“Umět” or “umět dobře” could mean also “to be good/skillful at something”.



ZNÁT means “to be familiar with”, “to have practical experience with”, “to be informed about”, “to have an acquaintance with”, “to have a sense of”.

  Znám ten pocit. = I know that feeling.
  (I’m familiar with it / I have experince with it.)

  Znám Igora. = I know Igor.
  (He's my friend. / I met him once. / I’m informed about him. / I can recognize him. / I know what he is like. / … / I know the part of Igor Hnízdo in Obecná škola, but not necessarily well enough to play it. Very Happy)

  Znám tu báseň, ale neumím ji. ~ I know that poem, but not enough to recite it.

  neznat hranic = to know no bounds
  (to have no sense of borders)

  znát míru = to know when to stop
  (to have a sense of measure)


“Vědět” and “umět” always imply “znát”, but not vice versa, so you can often use “znát” in place of the other verbs:

  vím pravdu × znám pravdu
  umím báseň × znám báseň

  vím, jaký je = I know (the truth) what he is like
     ×
  znám, jaký je = I know what he is like / I have experience with him

Quote:
There's no difference in grammar!?

No difference in the particular example.
Quote:
So I can say Znám že Igor.

“Že” starts a subordinate clause and Igor is not a clause, so you can’t.
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scrimshaw
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PostPosted: 05-Jan-10 16:15  Reply with quote

Další skvělá vysvětlení.
Vědět z vidět...to see...je hezký přiklad.

"Vidíš chlap, který sedí vedle Marie?"
"Ano."
"Znaš ho? Ano, ale ne dobře."
"Všiml sis toho, že se jeho ponožky líší v barvu?"
"Ano. A vsadím se, že si toho Marie všimla také. Má oči jako sokol."
"Já vím. Snaž se dostat jeji pozornost."
"Neumím to."
"Hoď na ni kus papíru."
"Učitel už na nás pozoruje. Nech toho! Udělej svoje práci dřív, než způsobíš nesnáze. Jsi rušitelem."

That was great linking the nouns to the roots.

schůzka......scházet se
děsivý.....děsit

that really helps
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Jsem zvědav, jak by to vypadalo, kdybych byl přivolávačem deště. Jak by to vypadalo, kdybych uměl přivolat déšt'?
Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
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TomKQT
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PostPosted: 06-Jan-10 7:54  Reply with quote

Ctyri koruny wrote:

There's no difference in grammar!? So I can say Znám že Igor. Can I? I can say Vím Igor!? Really!?

No you cannot because it doesn't give sense Wink

As already said, the meaning of the words is different and as you can see from your (incorrect) examples, also the grammatical usage differs.
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Ctyri koruny
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PostPosted: 07-Jan-10 13:59  Reply with quote

TomKQT wrote:
Ctyri koruny wrote:

There's no difference in grammar!? So I can say Znám že Igor. Can I? I can say Vím Igor!? Really!?

No you cannot because it doesn't give sense Wink

As already said, the meaning of the words is different and as you can see from your (incorrect) examples, also the grammatical usage differs.


It makes no sense because of the grammar errors, you said there was no difference in grammar!
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Představivost je důležitější než vědomosti.
Mám červenou tužku.
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