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scrimshaw
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Joined: 31 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 24-Jun-07 13:07  Reply with quote

Budu si to snazit zapamatovat.
Snazím se na něco si vzpomenout.

I still struggle with the reflexive concept.
In the first sentence the se reflexive for Snazit se is ommitted, yet retained in the second sentence.
Is this regional? One is more grammatically correct than the other?
Thanks
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Jsem zvědav, jak by to vypadalo, kdybych byl přivolávačem deště. Jak by to vypadalo, kdybych uměl přivolat déšt'?
Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
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wer
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PostPosted: 24-Jun-07 13:47  Reply with quote

It’s perfect Cool you are struggle with this because the first sentence is not correct. The reflexives can not be ommited.

Budu se snažit zapamatovat si to.
Snažím se na něco si vzpomenout.
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Eleshar
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PostPosted: 24-Jun-07 17:21  Reply with quote

I do not know exactly whether they can be omited and the phrase will still be considered grammatically correct but mostly in spoken language they are ommited very often, especially if there are two of the same kind.

e.g.:
verbs "zeptat se koho/čeho" (ask sb.) and "bát se koho/čeho" (to be affraid of sb., to fear sb.)

What no one says: "Bál se zeptat se ho" (he was too affraid to ask him)
What everyone says: "Bál se ho zeptat"

There is a strong tendence to place clitics to the second ace in sentence and it affects even the pronouns that are not part of the finite verb. The reason why one can be omitted is that it is not really "omitted" but the pronouns virtually merge into one that serves as a reflexive for both the verbs.

If there are two different reflexives, one is sometimes ommitted (the reason I write this word differently every time you see it is mainly the hope of writing it correctly at least once Smile ) but sometimes it sounds a little bit strange as in yours "budu si to snažit zapamatovat" but I am not sure whether anyone would remark it.

My explanation of the ommission (not again... but two S, I am sure...) is that the reflexive does not possess any information, it is completely redundant part of the verb. There are verbs like "procházet" (pass through) and "procházet se" (to have walk) and I cannot imagine that the aforementioned mersion could occur here as there would be significant change in meaning. On the other hand, there are no irreflexive counterparts to verbs as "snažit se", "zapamatovat si" and many others (but there is the pair "vzpomenout si", "vzpomenout", which is maybe the reason why you did not encounter the other form), so it is clear that if I say "snažit", I mean "snažit se".
Note that this ommission is possible only if there are two reflexives in a dependence (or in an infinitive used as an imperative, i.e. "zapamatovat!" instead "zapamatujte si to").
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scrimshaw
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PostPosted: 24-Jun-07 18:22  Reply with quote

Thanks
omit, omitted, omission

Hope you understand my confusion. That is the challenge that I like about learning another language.
wash myself=myji se
driving himself=řidí se do Prahy
and.....getting(which again implies the same subject and object
I am getting tired=Unavuji se
...as opposed to...To mě unavuje...that tires me
Chystám se=I am getting ready
I am fearing(I am afraid)=bojím se
Připavuji se na soutěž=I am preparing myself for the competition.

But the more I think about it the easier it becomes.
Rozhodl jsem se, že bych se na ni to zeptal.
Bojím se na takové věci si myslet, protože nechcí, abych je působil.
(I am afraid to think about such things, because I don't want to manifest them(cause them to happen)???
Bal jsem se rozhodovat se bez její vkladu(I was afraid to make a decision without her input.)???
Zuju se ted', ale si sestra obuje hnědé boty, protože musí jít ven.
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Jsem zvědav, jak by to vypadalo, kdybych byl přivolávačem deště. Jak by to vypadalo, kdybych uměl přivolat déšt'?
Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
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Alexx
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PostPosted: 25-Jun-07 7:20  Reply with quote

scrimshaw wrote:

wash myself=myji se OK
driving himself=řidí se do Prahy Jede do Prahy or Řítí se do prahy

I am getting tired=Unavuji se It is somethink like "busy" in another topic, it cannot be translated exactly. I would use present simple rather than countinuos, "I am tired" rather then "I am getting tired", so "Jsem unavený" in czech.
...as opposed to...To mě unavuje...that tires me
Chystám se=I am getting ready OK
I am fearing(I am afraid)=bojím se OK
Připavuji se na soutěž=I am preparing myself for the competition. OK

Rozhodl jsem se, že bych se na ni to zeptal. (just ni (her) or just to (it), not both)
Bojím se na takové věci si myslet, protože nechci, abych je působil.

Bal jsem se rozhodovat se bez její vkladu(I was afraid to make a decision without her input.)??? Bál jsem se rozhodnout, aniž bych se s ní nejdříve poradil.
Zuji se ted', ale si sestra obuje hnědé boty, protože musí jít ven. OK


That is pretty interesting think, this "se si omitting", I had no idea such thing exists Smile
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scrimshaw
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PostPosted: 25-Jun-07 11:29  Reply with quote

Díky Djavatar
reflexives...a pretty unfamiliar concept, actually I think we use it, but we are just kind of unaware we use it.

Myji se..myji si ruky
Řítí se do prahy ....naučil jsem se nové slovoso.
Jsem unavený, nemůžeme si někde odpočinout.
Bojíme se, že se nás připavuji napadnout. Chysatjí se od svítání.
Rozhodli jsme se ji zeptat, protože ona má všechna odpovědy.
Někde působíme věci, protože se je přílíš moc bojíme.
Myslíme si, že se něco zlé asi stane, a nějak se stáva.
Zuji se, konečně, protože skončil své dlouhý den, ale si sestra obuje teplé hnědé boty proti zimu, protože musí jít zas do zimy.
Bali jsme se rozhodnout, aniž bychom se s ní nejdřív poradili.
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Jsem zvědav, jak by to vypadalo, kdybych byl přivolávačem deště. Jak by to vypadalo, kdybych uměl přivolat déšt'?
Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
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Alexx
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Location: Karviná & Praha, Czech Republic

PostPosted: 25-Jun-07 11:50  Reply with quote

scrimshaw wrote:
Díky Djavatar
reflexives...a pretty unfamiliar concept, actually I think we use it, but we are just kind of unaware we use it.

Myji se..myji si ruce
Řítí se do prahy ....naučil jsem se nové sloveso.
Jsem unavený, nemůžeme si někde odpočinout?
Bojíme se, že se nás připavují napadnout. Chystají se od svítání.
Rozhodli jsme se jí zeptat, protože ona má všechny odpovědi.
Někde působíme věci, protože se je přílíš moc bojíme. (We are causing things somewhere, because we are too much affraid?)
Myslíme si, že se něco zlé asi stane, a nějak se stáva. (We are thinking somethink bad is gonna happend, and it is somehow happen...?)
Zuji se, konečně, protože skončil své můj dlouhý den, ale si sestra si obuje teplé hnědé boty proti zimě, protože musí jít zas do zimy.
Báli jsme se rozhodnout, aniž bychom se s ní nejdřív poradili.



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Eleshar
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PostPosted: 25-Jun-07 12:09  Reply with quote

I was writing to the Department of languages of our faculty and I began:

"Podařilo se mi přihlásit" (podařit se + přihlásit se)

Rolling Eyes
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Jana
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PostPosted: 25-Jun-07 14:35  Reply with quote

Scrimshaw wrote
Quote:
Rozhodl jsem se, že bych se na ni to zeptal
.

There can be three options:
Rozhodl jsem se, že bych se na ni zeptal.
I decided I would ask about her.
Rozhodl jsem se, že bych se na to zeptal.
I decided I would ask about it.
Rozhodl jsem se, že bych se jí na to zeptal.
I decided I would ask her about it.
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scrimshaw
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PostPosted: 25-Jun-07 18:51  Reply with quote

Thanks everybody
I've been thinking. We have transitive(having an object) and intransitive (not needing an object) verbs.
Maybe that is how we express the reflexive concept.
Čtu něco..I'm reading something...transitive
Čtu si....simply..I am reading......I think this use of the verb would be considered intransitive.
další překlad
Obejdeme dnes jezero v parku třikrát.
Neobejdu se sám v tom velkém světě...I will not be able to get around(along) alone......

Thanks Jana, to je ted' jasné.
že bych se na ni zeptal.
,že bych se na to zeptal.
,že bych se jí na to zeptal.

Někde působíme věci, protože se je přílíš moc bojíme. (We are causing things somewhere, because we are too much affraid?)
Myslel jsem......
Někdy působíme věci, protože se je přílíš moc bojíme...Sometimes we cause things to happen, because we fear them too much.(It's a certain philosophy.. By always being afraid something will happen, constantly thinking about it, we unintentionally cause it to happen)
...Myslíme si, že se něco zlé asi stane, a nějak se stáva. (We are thinking somethink bad is gonna happend, and it is somehow happen...?)
(We think something bad might happen, and somehow it happens.)
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Jsem zvědav, jak by to vypadalo, kdybych byl přivolávačem deště. Jak by to vypadalo, kdybych uměl přivolat déšt'?
Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
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