Moje > Svoje?? ETC >>

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jonesnewton
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Moje > Svoje?? ETC >>

Postby jonesnewton » 21-Feb-10 22:08

Any simple explanation how this works,,, changing Moje etc TO Svoje etc?

Is it simple for myself?? Or is it belonging to me?
:? :?
T.T.F.N. :-)
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kotja
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Postby kotja » 22-Feb-10 7:42

You use svůj if it belongs to subject of the sentence.

Example: He drives his car. Řídí svoje auto.
Morituri nomulus mori. - Rincewind the wizzard
Come shall ten well bloat ? Ten well bloat shell when blaight !
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Alexx
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Postby Alexx » 22-Feb-10 15:04

Exactly.

Řídím své/svoje auto. = Řídím mé/moje auto.

Both means "I am driving my car."

but

Řídíš moje auto. =/= Řídíš svoje auto.

(You are driving my car vs. You are driving your (own) car)
I cesta může být cíl.
The journey is the goal.
wer
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Postby wer » 22-Feb-10 17:15

kotja wrote:You use svůj if it belongs to subject of the sentence.

More precisely, the reflexives refer to the semantic agent. It could be used even in subjectless phrases, e.g. in infinitive phrases or in other phrases of verbal origin:

  to speak to oneself = mluvit (sám) k sobě
  mothers breastfeeding their babies = matky kojící své děti


The distinction of reflexive and non-relexive forms exist in English as well, but only for personal pronouns:

  he saw him (~ Peter saw John) = viděl ho
  he saw himself (~ Peter saw Peter) = viděl (sám) sebe


In Czech, unlike in English, the same distinction is obligatory even for possessives:

  he saw his car (~ Peter saw John’s car) = viděl jeho auto
  he saw his (own) car (~ Peter saw Peter’s car) = viděl své auto


The Czech reflexives are universal for all agents:

  to see oneself = vidět se(be)
  I see myself = (já) vidím sebe
  you see yourself = (ty) vidíš sebe
  he sees himself = (on) vidí sebe
  she sees herself = ona vidí sebe
  …


In Standard Czech, reflexive form has priority whenever it is possible to use it, so in the Alexx’s example:

  Řídím své/svoje auto. = Řídím mé/moje auto.

only the first one is standard despite the latter one is common in colloquial Czech.

The reflexives could also express a mutual relation corresponding to English “each other(’s)” ore “one’s respective”.
TomKQT
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Postby TomKQT » 22-Feb-10 17:55

I always wonder where do you take all the theory from, wer. :shock:
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Alexx
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Postby Alexx » 22-Feb-10 20:58

wer wrote:In Standard Czech, reflexive form has priority whenever it is possible to use it, so in the Alexx’s example:

  Řídím své/svoje auto. = Řídím mé/moje auto.

only the first one is standard despite the latter one is common in colloquial Czech.


My post originaly was longer explaining on examples like

Řídíš tvoje auto
Řídí jeho auto

that those forms are often used by czechs, despite it is not right, however then I saw he wants simple answer so I deleted it :-)


EDIT: My 1000th post, I should open bottle of wine :-)
Wicker808
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Postby Wicker808 » 22-Feb-10 21:50

wer wrote:More precisely, the reflexives refer to the semantic agent.


wer, I'm not sure if I agree with this. As I understand it, a semantic agent need not be a subject of a sentence. For example,

Byt byl uklizen uklížečem.
The apartment was cleaned by the cleaner.

Above, the semantic agent (i.e. the party performing the action) is uklížeč. Do you agree with that? Or are we using different meanings of the term "semantic agent"? (I am not a linguist.)

However, I can't say:

*Svůj byt byl uklizen uklížečem.
*His own apartment was cleaned by the cleaner.

So, in this case, I think it's better to say that the antecedent of svůj is always the subject of the clause, even if the subject is implicit or a trace.

Because svůj always refers to the subject, it can never appear in the subject. Therefore, I would postulate this additional rule: svůj can never modify a noun in the nominative case.

Finally, I would like to emphasize that the antecedent of svůj is the subject of the clause that it appears in, rather than the subject of the sentence. That is, the clause whose subject svůj refers to need not be the primary clause. For example:

Moje matka řekla, že bych měl uklidit svůj pokoj.
My mother said that I should clean my room.
*My mother said that I should clean her room.

The subject of the second clause is já, so svůj pokoj means můj pokoj.
scrimshaw
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Postby scrimshaw » 23-Feb-10 1:28

Příběh o ošklivém kachńatce.
Kdy se mladá labuť se podívala do vody a viděla se poprvé, nelíbilo se ji moc, co tam viděla, ale po pár měsíce, co ve vodě viděla, bylo zrcadlení velmí krásného tvoru. Stejně jako Narcisus se do sebe zamilovala a má ráda se dívat na svoje zrcadlění i dnes.
Jsem zvědav, jak by to vypadalo, kdybych byl přivolávačem deště. Jak by to vypadalo, kdybych uměl přivolat déšt'?
Mám pocit ale, že se to bohužel nikdy nedozvím.
Wicker808
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Postby Wicker808 » 23-Feb-10 2:44

As an afterthought, I wonder if you Czechs consider these following sentences ambiguous. I suspect that for you they are not ambiguous. Nevertheless, they can be hard to interpret for a learner, because the antecedent of the reflexive pronoun depends on more complex rules.

Please let me know what you think is the correct translation:

Udeřil matku kojící své dítě.
He hit the mother nursing her child.
OR He hit the mother nursing his child.

Dali ty židle dál od sebe.
They put the chairs further from each other.
OR They put the chairs further from themselves.

Přemýšlím o tvé reakci vůči své aktuální situaci.
I'm thinking about your reaction to your current situation.
OR I'm thinking about your reaction to my current situation.
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Alexx
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Postby Alexx » 23-Feb-10 9:19

Hm, nice question. Cannot explain it linquistically, but my opinion:

1.) first option is right and first only.

2.) ambiguous

3.) hard to tell :-), first option seems better
I cesta může být cíl.

The journey is the goal.

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