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Moje > Svoje?? ETC >>
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Ctyri koruny
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Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 550

PostPosted: 23-Feb-10 9:14  Reply with quote

I'm glad someone posted a thread about this, I know when to use them, but what confuses me is which form to use... (so I guess and make a "swooo swoo sound like an owl)

You mean it's the same word for: myself, yourself, hiself, herself, etc. etc.
and this word only changes according to case?
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jonesnewton
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: 23-Feb-10 10:25  Reply with quote

Hi Thanks ALL for your replies.

Alexx wrote:
Exactly.

Řídím své/svoje auto. = Řídím mé/moje auto.

Both means "I am driving my car."

but

Řídíš moje auto. =/= Řídíš svoje auto.

(You are driving my car vs. You are driving your (own) car)


I am new to Czech so be patient with me.
I understand the first part, though not exactly sure why you would have the two differnt things to mean the same thing?? Aren't they both MINE??

AND
Part 1 of the second I understand

BUT
Part 2 of the second??

Řídíš svoje auto >>
Wouldn't this mean > You drive x 1 TY (not me, JA)-mine -car?
= you drive my car?

I know you should not literally translate, but I am trying to get a hang of this??
Confused
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kibicz
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PostPosted: 23-Feb-10 13:18  Reply with quote

http://www.myczechrepublic.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=997

Jonesnewton, see what Behaemus wrote..
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jonesnewton
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PostPosted: 23-Feb-10 14:33  Reply with quote

Hi
I looked at what he wrote and I only see

Romulus probodl Rema svým mečem.
Romulus probodl Rema jeho mečem.


Question Is it HIS and HIS Question

BUT

SVYM the sword belongs to Romulas and JEHO the sword belongs to Rema??

Or is it the other way around Laughing Question
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TomKQT
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PostPosted: 23-Feb-10 15:34  Reply with quote

jonesnewton wrote:

Romulus probodl Rema svým mečem.
Romulus probodl Rema jeho mečem.


The first one - Romulus used his own sword.
The second one - Romulus took Remus's sword and killed him with it.
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TomKQT
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PostPosted: 23-Feb-10 15:36  Reply with quote

Wicker808 wrote:

Přemýšlím o tvé reakci vůči své aktuální situaci.
I'm thinking about your reaction to your current situation.
OR I'm thinking about your reaction to my current situation.

Alexx wrote:

3.) hard to tell Smile, first option seems better


For me the second one is maybe better.

Which confirms what you said - it's really hard to tell Laughing
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wer
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PostPosted: 23-Feb-10 16:06  Reply with quote

Alexx wrote:
…however then I saw he wants simple answer so I deleted it Smile

Yes, as a rule of thumb, one can say that “svůj” refers to the subject — it’s mostly true.

Wicker808 wrote:
wer, I'm not sure if I agree with this. As I understand it, a semantic agent need not be a subject of a sentence.

That’s exactly my reason to use another term than subject.

It’s meaningful even in subjectless phrases (not everything must be sentence; subjectless phrase could be one element within a complex sentence etc.):

  uklidit si svůj pokoj (to clean one’s own/respective room)
  svůj vrah (one’s own murderer)
  sebeobrana (self-defence)


Quote:
For example,

Byt byl uklizen uklížečem.
The apartment was cleaned by the cleaner.

Above, the semantic agent (i.e. the party performing the action) is uklížeč. Do you agree with that? Or are we using different meanings of the term "semantic agent"? (I am not a linguist.)

Well, I’m not sure of the English terminology and the terminology is ambiguous here. The semantic agent of the whole sentence is indeed the cleaner, but in fact there are two actions within the sentence — first the action “to be” with agent “apartment”, and second the action “to clean” with agent “cleaner”. So my new attempt for less ambiguous definiton:

A reflexive establishes a symmetrical link between semantical agent and patient with respect to the action (or relation) within the minimal part which on its own can exist as one meaningful element.

Quote:
So, in this case, I think it's better to say that the antecedent of svůj is always the subject of the clause…

But it needn’t be the subject:

  Na tisíce lososů plulo na své odvěké cestě.
  Thousands of salmon were swimming on their time-honored way.


Here, the salmons are the semantical agent, but subject is different.

Another example:

  Svůj pán
  One’s own master


This is not sentence at all (it could be a title, for instance), so there is no subject. Here the reflexive establishes a relation (of identity) between the agent and patient of the relation “to be somebody’s master”.

And one more example:

  Udržovat svou zbraň je povinností každého vojáka.
  The maintenance of one’s own weapon is duty of every soldier.


Here an infinive construction fuctions as subject of the whole sentence (in Czech only!) and the reflexive has its own function within the infinitive construction — it refers to the agent of the infinitive.

Quote:
Because svůj always refers to the subject, it can never appear in the subject. Therefore, I would postulate this additional rule: svůj can never modify a noun in the nominative case.

I disagree with both your premise and conclusion. Reflexive could be within the subject:

  Svůj pán se nemusí ohlížet na ostatní.
  One’s own master needn’t care about the others.


And reflexive could expand a noun in nominative even out of the subject:

  Mí přátelé jsou i sví přátelé.
  My friends are also friends each other.


Quote:
Udeřil matku kojící své dítě.
He hit the mother nursing her child.
OR *He hit the mother nursing his child.

Here, the minimal part is “kojící své dítě”, hence “své” refers to the agent of “kojit”.

Quote:
Dali ty židle dál od sebe.
They put the chairs further from each other.
OR They put the chairs further from themselves.

Here, the minimal part is “dál od sebe” and its function within the whole sentence is ambiguous.

Quote:
Přemýšlím o tvé reakci vůči své aktuální situaci.
I'm thinking about your reaction to your current situation.
OR *I'm thinking about your reaction to my current situation.

Here, the minimal part (in lemmatic form) is “reakce vůči své (aktuální) situaci” and “své” refers to the agent of the reaction.

Ctyri koruny wrote:
You mean it's the same word for: myself, yourself, hiself, herself, etc. etc.

Yes, and also for the indefinite form “oneself”.

Quote:
and this word only changes according to case?

Yes, it is declined like the other corresponding pronouns (“se” like “tě”, “sebe” like “tebe”, “svůj” like “tvůj” etc.).

jonesnewton wrote:
I am new to Czech so be patient with me.

No problem. (And don’t worry about the more advanced examples. That’s just nitpicking among us Czechs.)

Quote:
I understand the first part, though not exactly sure why you would have the two differnt things to mean the same thing?? Aren't they both MINE??

Exactly, that’s why the non-reflexive form is substandard. (But in this case the substandard usage is not ambiguous and therefor common and tolerated in colloquial Czech.)

Quote:
BUT
Part 2 of the second??

Řídíš svoje auto >>
Wouldn't this mean > You drive x 1 TY (not me, JA)-mine -car?
= you drive my car?

No, “svoje” refers to the agent of the action, that is to the driver.

You can use the phrase “řídit svoje auto” (to drive one’s own car) universally for all possible subjects and it always means that the car belongs to the driver.

Quote:
SVYM the sword belongs to Romulas and JEHO the sword belongs to Rema??

Yes, “svým” refers to the agent of the action which happens to be Romulus. “Jeho”, on the other hand, can’t refer to the agent, so in the second example the sword belongs to Remus or to some completely different person.
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Wicker808
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PostPosted: 23-Feb-10 16:36  Reply with quote

wer wrote:
A reflexive establishes a symmetrical link between semantical agent and patient with respect to the action (or relation) within the minimal part which on its own can exist as one meaningful element.

Well, you lost me a bit here. But I understand the the "minimal" qualifier attempts to limit the range of antecedents.

Nevertheless, it's a rule that doesn't always help. That is, there are still cases that are ambiguous, arising from situations where there is disagreement over what is a "minimal...meaningful element."

Quote:

  Na tisíce lososů plulo na své odvěké cestě.
  Thousands of salmon were swimming on their time-honored way.


Here, the salmons are the semantical agent, but subject is different.


Yes, you're right. Good point.

Quote:

  Svůj pán se nemusí ohlížet na ostatní.
  One’s own master needn’t care about the others.


I wonder if this isn't an idiom, rather than indication of a broader grammatical rule. Certainly, we couldn't substitute the word pán in the above sentence with another word, such as pes. So I would argue that this case is exceptional, that "svůj pán" means "a person who is his own master, a person who is independent of others" and shouldn't be interpreted as a conventional use of the word svůj as a reflexive pronoun. As evidence of this, I'd say that svůj here has no antecedent.

Quote:

  Udržovat svou zbraň je povinností každého vojáka.
  The maintenance of one’s own weapon is duty of every soldier.


Here an infinive construction fuctions as subject of the whole sentence (in Czech only!) and the reflexive has its own function within the infinitive construction — it refers to the agent of the infinitive.


I think on this we agree: you are just saying "agent of the infinitive" and I am saying "trace subject."

Quote:

And reflexive could expand a noun in nominative even out of the subject:

  Mí přátelé jsou i sví přátelé.
  My friends are also friends each other.



You're right. I forgot about cases where svůj can appear in the nominative complement to a copula. Nevertheless, I would still maintain that svůj cannot appear in the subject of a sentence.

Quote:

Quote:
Přemýšlím o tvé reakci vůči své aktuální situaci.
I'm thinking about your reaction to your current situation.
OR *I'm thinking about your reaction to my current situation.

Here, the minimal part (in lemmatic form) is “reakce vůči své (aktuální) situaci” and “své” refers to the agent of the reaction.

I would beware of applying the stated rules too rigidly. The interpretation of this kind of sentence is probably subject to debate.

For example, one day the director says to the actor:
Přemýšlím o tvé roli ve svém novém filmu.

Would you still maintain that svůj refers to the actor, rather than the director?

Quote:

jonesnewton wrote:
I am new to Czech so be patient with me.

No problem. (And don’t worry about the more advanced examples. That’s just nitpicking among us Czechs.)

And among non-Czechs. :)
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Ctyri koruny
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PostPosted: 23-Feb-10 18:25  Reply with quote

wer wrote:

Ctyri koruny wrote:
You mean it's the same word for: myself, yourself, hiself, herself, etc. etc.

Yes, and also for the indefinite form “oneself”.

Quote:
and this word only changes according to case?

Yes, it is declined like the other corresponding pronouns (“se” like “tě”, “sebe” like “tebe”, “svůj” like “tvůj” etc.).

.


Cheers! That's been bugging me for a while.


In English we say

He is driving his car.
and we only say "He is driving his-own car" if the ownership of the car is in doubt for some reason, like there are 2 "he's" or he has a habit of stealing cars, in Czech it's the opposite, you always use the word which means your-own and only use the word for someone else's in the exceptions.
Both pretty logical ways of doing it I think. 2 sides of the same coin.

I think the books make us more confused about this by teaching us "moje" etc. first, but they do that so as not to confuse us. Wink

I think don't worry about it, use moje tvoje etc. etc. for everything until you've seen svoje in enough places to get a grasp of what it's about. That seems to be what the text books want us to do and I'm sure they have some reason for that.
Everyone will understand you and some Czechs do it themselves (My teacher claims it is the German/English influence and is very much against it)
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