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Qcumber
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Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 402
Location: Paris, France
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 Posted: 16-Jul-05 10:47 |
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Glottal stop
About
I live with my father = Bydlím s otcem.
What is the pronunciation of the segment _s otcem_
1. With a glottal stop?
1.1. With a geminate?
['sˀottsem]
1.2. Without a geminate?
['sˀotsem]
2. Without a glottal stop?
2.1. With a geminate?
['sottsem]
2.2. Without a geminate?
['sotsem]
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Jana
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Joined: 07 Dec 1999
Posts: 1053
Location: VA, U.S.A., Olomouc, ČR
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| Posted: 16-Jul-05 11:43 |
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1. With a glottal stop
1.1. With a geminate
['sˀottsem]
correct language
1.2. Without a geminate
['sˀotsem]
common spoken pronunciation
However, spoken language would probably prefer táta or tata (Moravian dialect). |
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Qcumber
Senior Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 402
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: 16-Jul-05 13:41 |
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Jana:
| Quote: |
1. With a glottal stop
1.1. With a geminate
['sˀottsem]
correct language
1.2. Without a geminate
['sˀotsem]
common spoken pronunciation
However, spoken language would probably prefer táta or tata (Moravian dialect).
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Again a useful answer. Thanks a lot, Jana. 
I don't doubt táta / tata "daddy" is more common, but with it I can't examine the two problems involved in the segment with s otcem.
From your answer I draw two conclusions.
a) Czech has post-glottalized phones, e.g. [sˀ] as above. This is particularly precious for I don't think this sort of feature is very common.
b) When there is the geminate [tt] resulting from /t/ + /ts/, the geminate may be either maintained of reduced to its singleton [t].
I suppose there are similar results with other consonants.
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Jana
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Joined: 07 Dec 1999
Posts: 1053
Location: VA, U.S.A., Olomouc, ČR
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| Posted: 16-Jul-05 14:34 |
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| Quote: |
| b) When there is the geminate [tt] resulting from /t/ + /ts/, the geminate may be either maintained of reduced to its singleton [t]. |
Actually, the reduction is /ts/.
The reduction is perfectly evident in an example of Slovak (our brother language) where otec (father) transforms into oco, ocko, ocinko (daddy); the orthography follows here the pronunciation.
Similar reduction can be heard in the combination d+c (dts); e.g. rádce (adviser), hádka (quarrel, locative v hádce). |
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Qcumber
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Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 402
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: 16-Jul-05 14:42 |
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Jana:
| Quote: |
| Similar reduction can be heard in the combination d+c (dts); e.g. rádce (adviser), hádka (quarrel, locative v hádce). |
You are a very good guide, Jana. Thanks a lot.
I suppose that in rádce "adviser" the /d/ is devoiced because it follows /ts/ that is unvoiced hence *['ra:dtse] > ['ra:ttse] > ['ra:tse].
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Justin
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Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 23
Location: Cape Town
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| Posted: 31-Jul-05 9:25 |
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| Qcumber wrote: |
From your answer I draw two conclusions.
a) Czech has post-glottalized phones, e.g. [sˀ] as above. This is particularly precious for I don't think this sort of feature is very common. |
why do you consider the 's' a post-glottalized phone rather than the 'o' of 'otec' a pre-glottalized phone? this makes more sense to me. am i being linguistically naiive? is the 's' followed by a glottal stop even when it precedes a consonant?
if you're interested in distinctly POST-glottalized phones, the cockney dialect of english is a prime example: word-final 't' has been replaced by a glottal stop so that standard english [that] is pronounced [thaˀ]. i guess it's easier to find post-glottalized vowels than consonants though... |
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Qcumber
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Posts: 402
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: 31-Jul-05 10:44 |
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Justin:
| Quote: |
| why do you consider the 's' a post-glottalized phone rather than the 'o' of 'otec' a pre-glottalized phone? |
At first sight both interpretations are correct.
Now,
1) as the /s/ cannot be pronounced alone,
2) as it is not a post-clitic that sticks to the final of the preceding word, but a pre-clitic that sticks to the initial of the following word,
3) and as the glottal stop is not erased after the /s/
I came to the conclusion that the result is a post-glottalized [s] : [sˀ].
In other words, you obtain a phonetic word whose initial is [sˀ]. I suppose the same can be said about prepositions reduced to a consonant followed by a word beginning with a vowel. This is a remarkable phonetic (not phonemic) feature of Czech.
I use the expression "post-glottalized" because many linguists do not treat the glottal stop as a full-fledged consonant. Actually [sˀ] is comparable to [sl] , [st], etc. It is just a consonant followed by another consonant.
Yes I know the glottal stop very well: I had to master it when I studied Arabic where it is a phoneme. I also know that funny Cockney pronunciation of /t/, e.g. waiter > wai'er.  By the way, I'm afraid, in this pronunciation you do not obtain post-glottalized phones, but a vowel followed by the consonant [ˀ].
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Justin
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Posts: 23
Location: Cape Town
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| Posted: 31-Jul-05 10:57 |
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| Qcumber wrote: |
the glottal stop is not erased after the /s/
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even when followed by a consonant? eg. s dobrým otcem? |
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Jana
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Joined: 07 Dec 1999
Posts: 1053
Location: VA, U.S.A., Olomouc, ČR
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| Posted: 31-Jul-05 14:02 |
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To Justin:
Definitely - the same also happens with other prepositions formed by a consonant, i.e. k, v, z and prepositions ending with a consonant, e.g. bez, od, přes, nad, used with nouns beginning with a consonant or a combination of two and more of them.
The tendency of simplification which occurs in every language is manifested here by common use of an added vowel -e; ke, ve, ze, beze, ode, přese, nade. Some examples - ke škodě, ve vodě (in cases of double occurrence of the same consonant, i.e. the preposition and the beginning of the following noun, it is the only solution, as a glottal stop would not make the pronuniciation any easier), ze školy, beze mne, ode všeho, nade mlejnem. Quite often, these prepositions joined the following noun, forming adjectives or adverbs- bezejmenný, odedávna. |
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Justin
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Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 23
Location: Cape Town
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| Posted: 31-Jul-05 14:23 |
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thanks jana! i was under the impression that 's dobrým otcem' sounded just like *'sdobrým otcem'  you live and learn!  |
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