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what do you think about kosovo? and tibet?
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pedro1974
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 176
Location: Brno je moje mesto!

PostPosted: 24-Mar-08 22:21  Reply with quote

Hi all, I hope noone get upset about this topic and about my ideas.

I cant understand how the usa and ue permitted (supporting and recognizing it) the born of kosovo, a fake state, stolen at the serbia nation.

they said the 90% of popolation is albanian, but they dont says to us why the serbs had to abandoned that own land, how the churchs were destroyed by criminals covered by usa and ue...

as well I cant understand how usa and ue can do nothing for stop the brutal repression in tibet.
even a kids could recognize that tibet is an other country, different from china and its just occupated by them with the force.

usa and ue always think to rapresent the freedom and the good part of the world, they were in afghanistan and iraq for "help" the local popolation (...) Rolling Eyes
why they dont do nothing for the tibet?
china is too big for them?
china is a good partner?

thanks for your opinions
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eso
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Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 1717
Location: Kladno/Prague

PostPosted: 25-Mar-08 6:33  Reply with quote

pedro1974 wrote:

I cant understand how the usa and ue permitted (supporting and recognizing it) the born of kosovo, a fake state, stolen at the serbia nation.

they said the 90% of popolation is albanian, but they dont says to us why the serbs had to abandoned that own land, how the churchs were destroyed by criminals covered by usa and ue...


I have not time right know, but I will try to write longer reply about this topic later. In short - I think that after the horrible war, no ideal solution exists.

Quote:

as well I cant understand how usa and ue can do nothing for stop the brutal repression in tibet.
even a kids could recognize that tibet is an other country, different from china and its just occupated by them with the force.


Quote:

why they dont do nothing for the tibet?
china is too big for them?
china is a good partner?


Well, these questions are (unfortunately) much easier to answer.

China has intercontinental ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads.

China owns American dollar - every one American owes $4000 to China - read this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200801/fallows-chinese-dollars

There is 1.3 billlion Chinese citizens and American and European companies dream about selling goods to them.


Last edited by eso on 25-Mar-08 7:09; edited 1 time in total
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Alexx
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Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: Karviná & Praha, Czech Republic

PostPosted: 25-Mar-08 6:56  Reply with quote

Cannot speak about Tibet, I have not enought information about it (which is probably because of China forbiden press from being there).

But to Kosovo - it is easy to say "Kosovo is Serbia" or "Kosovo is Albanian" but the truth is more complicated.

Last year, I was in Nish (Niš) - closest bigest serbian town to Kosovo borders. All people I have been speaking with, told me not to go to Kosovo, because I will be killed there or so, but none of those people (serbians) has never even been there. There is no regular public transport between Serbia and Kosovo, I was told there are some "unmarked" white vans going from Nish to Prishtina, but I did not find them.

So since then I am asking myself: "Why do they so hardly insist on Kosovo being Serbian, when they do not go there, and do not recomend foreigners to visit Kosovo?"

If nothing goes wrong, I am gonna go to Kosovo this summer, from Macedonia (regular bus line 10 times daily, none to Serbia - curious, isn't it?) to see on my own and speak with people living there to get objective opinion.

Till then, I will just hope there is not gonna start some "conflict".
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pedro1974
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 176
Location: Brno je moje mesto!

PostPosted: 25-Mar-08 13:03  Reply with quote

thanks for your replies.

of course I do not wish any conflict in kosovo, but I have to support the serbian cause.

think about "someone" decide miami is not an american territory only cause 90% of the popolation come from hispanic countries (that its truth...).
or some german city with turkish, or italian, french zone as well...

for what I know, kosovo was a serbian territory for centuries, they built church.

what I cant understand, how the countries that supported the kosovo indipendence, didnt use the same right for other region?
why france still occupied territories in polinesia, in extreme asia?????
why uk agree with kosovo freedom and not with the northern ireland?
why holland (and belgium in the near past had many african colonies) recognized the new state and not the indipendence of some small island in caribic sea they own?

if there is a reason should be the same everywhere.
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eso
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PostPosted: 25-Mar-08 16:27  Reply with quote

pedro1974 wrote:

think about "someone" decide miami is not an american territory only cause 90% of the popolation come from hispanic countries (that its truth...).
or some german city with turkish, or italian, french zone as well...


Again - if it happened after gory war, who knows. These things happen, where people start to kill and rape their neighbors. Sometimes they have to be separated for some time. Like in Ireland, or Israel/Palestine or Korea.

pedro1974 wrote:

what I cant understand, how the countries that supported the kosovo indipendence, didnt use the same right for other region?
why france still occupied territories in polinesia, in extreme asia?????
why uk agree with kosovo freedom and not with the northern ireland? why holland (and belgium in the near past had many african colonies) recognized the new state and not the indipendence of some small island in caribic sea they own?


I believe that main difference is ethnic clensing executed by Serbian forces and 20 000 Kosovo women raped by Serbian soldiers and policemen.

Personaly I'm not very enthusiastic about Kosovo independence, because I'm afraid there is big chance that Kosovo will change in islam state. But I don't think that Serbia could rule in Kosove either.

It's like German resettlement from Sudetes in 1945. I'm sure it was tragedy for some Germans, but in atmosphere of that time there was no other solution.
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Petr_B
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Joined: 17 May 2007
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Location: Olomouc, CZ

PostPosted: 25-Mar-08 17:07  Reply with quote

DjAvatar wrote:

So since then I am asking myself: "Why do they so hardly insist on Kosovo being Serbian, when they do not go there, and do not recomend foreigners to visit Kosovo?"

Well, I will answer these questions for you, it's really simple.
#1 I believe that during the era of the First Republic many Czechs didn't visit "Sudety" nor they felt the need to do that and yet they still didn't want to let them go, right?
#2 Because they think it's not safe there.

There's so many suspicious things about Kosovo and NATO attack on Serbia in 1999:
* If one watched Wag the Dog movie, it's really hard not to draw parallels between it and Serbia bombing, considering it happened right at the time of Levinski's case.
* Did Albright use it in an attempt to prove that even woman can have balls?
* On what basis NATO attacked Serbia, I don't know much about NATO but I assume it should act only if one of its members is attacked/endangered?
* What about Yugoslavia's (at that time) UN membership being suspended for the time of NATO ambush, was is the right thing to do?
* It's rather ironic that US government leading "War on Drugs" and "War on Terror" supports Kosovo Liberation Army, many members (and leaders) of which have been engaged in both drug trafficking and terrorism.
* There are other theories about why Clinton's administrative attacked Serbia, at least some of them being true: They wanted to appease Muslims, to compensate for Israel support. They wanted to increase military presence and thus control in the region (search for Camp Bondsteel). They want to exploit vast mineral resources in Kosovo, control the traffic routes, ....

You might want to check out expert opinion of people who know about what they are talking, e.g. like this interview with former high-ranked United Nations official or our own J. Dienstbier, who've been engaged in Balkan affairs for quite some time. These are not like e.g. some 9/11 lunatic conspiracy theories.

Anyway, for me the Serbia bombing were rather cold shower. It happened shortly after Czech Republic joined NATO and we were told how peaceful organization which exists only to protect its members it is. Well, we could see how it really is, but it's better to get rid of one's illusions sooner than later.
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Alexx
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Location: Karviná & Praha, Czech Republic

PostPosted: 25-Mar-08 18:52  Reply with quote

I just guess past should be left in past, but what is important is future. If there is gonna be peace in the region, Kosovo liberation army will have nothing to liberate, serbians sooner or later put up with Kosovo independence, and one day, hopefully, both Serbia and Kosovo, and all other ex-Yugoslavian countries, will be part of EU and schengen area with no inner borders and will live next to each other peacefully, as czechia or poland with germany, or france with england. That is what I believe in, and I hope they will realize, both albanians and serbians, that this is possible and important goal.

But now situation looks like small version of cold war between Serbia (Russia) vs. Kosovo (USA), as we know it from 1950-1990 Germany in better case, or Korea (or Vietnam) in worse case.
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BMoody
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Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 150
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: 25-Mar-08 22:13  Reply with quote

I talked to a Serbian international student here in Nevada recently and she pointed out that Kosovo was an extremely important historic part of the Serbian identity. It had to either do with a famous battle there or the start of a Serbian kingdom at that point. Essentially, the Albanians, to her, were unwelcome immigrants onto her homeland.

She then went on about how she and her family would fight and die for Serbia. Scary stuff aye?

The U.S. and E.U., in my book, should have left Kosovo to the Serbs. I believe that now there very well maybe a war over it again. Let's hope not. If there is no war over it, then perhaps it was for the better, but if there is one, then it was definately not worth it.

As for Tibet, the whole world should condemn China's imperialism there, but economies and power politics don't always bow down to moral principles.
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kibicz
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Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 310
Location: Praha

PostPosted: 25-Mar-08 22:51  Reply with quote

Its exactly the same as Sudety in Bohemia - first it was Czech-settled area where German colonists gradualy gained majority(not everywhere) - sending them back was the best possible resolution(How calm is it now). Too bad EU and USA would never approve it in Kosovo.. every nation deserves its own state, but not second state at another´s land..
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PGN
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Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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Location: Virginia

PostPosted: 26-Mar-08 4:39  Reply with quote

Here's why NATO got involved:

http://www.osce.org/publications/odihr/1999/11/17755_506_en.pdf

Here's interviews of people directly involved from both sides:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kosovo/cleansing/

I'm not sure why there is any debate, look at the links, they are not pro US, EU, or NATO. There was ethinic cleansing going on, if we as a society, race, creed or what have you accept ethinic cleansing, then yes, we should never have gotten involved. The Human Race has advanced to the point where we don't accept this.

There are a couple things that I don't understand or disagree with;

The thread started out with basically why did US/EU/NATO interfer with Kosovo and in the same post why isn't the US interfering with Tibet. So we are bad ( Rolling Eyes ) for getting involved in Kosovo and we are bad( Rolling Eyes ) for not getting involved in Tibet......where is the logic in this? Is this a bash the US thread?

We next come up with ICBMs with nuclear warheads....20 Silo based missiles....we're not talking MAD that we had in place during the cold war.

Reply to the stereo typing of Americans....evey one American does not owe $4000 to China nor do we all drive SUVs not exercise and eat fast food everyday.

The latest profile for Miami of persons of Hispanic or Latino origin is 61.3%, not 90%.

Generally establishing facts from Hollywood movies is not real history. Albright proving that she had intestinal fortitude, NATO attacking Serbia, War on Drugs, Lewinski, appeasement of the Muslims, exploit mineral resources.......

There was ethinic cleansing, everyone sat on thier rear ends during Rwanda in 93 as ethinic cleansing was occurring. I remember the Russian aircraft coming into the airport in Bangui while bits and pieces of real stories, not Hollywood stories started to filter out of the jungle. We, meaning the civilized world totally screwed up there.

NATO illusions? Showing that ethinic cleansing is not an accepted method....that mission was stabilize, humanitarian relief, and separate the warring factions.

Sorry if I offended anyone.
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