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what do you think about kosovo? and tibet?
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wer
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Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 1700
Location: East Bohemia

PostPosted: 27-Jan-10 20:58  Reply with quote

Sova wrote:
Czechs and Slovaks have no border disputes and are "good friends" in no small part because they have no history of violence one toward another, not to mention similar culture/ancestry/ethnicity. So, no offense, but your example seems weak in this context.

The recent period of non-violence between Czechs and Slovaks is only a short episode in comparison with the millenium of no border disputes. There was a lot of fighting between Czechs and Slovaks (as loyal subjects of the King of Hungary or of the Sultan of Ottoman Empire, or as soldiers of fortune in the invading armies from Asia), many religous conflicts, and even more dynastic conflicts, but the most recent border dispute I’m aware of dates back to the Boleslav’s reconquest of Moravia, that is to the 10th century. The border seems to be settled since the Battle of Lechfeld (August 10th, 955) which most likely ended the Boleslav’s campaign in Moravia.

Quote:
If you'd cited France and Germany, on the other hand…

The history of French-German relations is notorious for violent border disputes.

From historical perspective, the recent calm between Germans and French is an exception, and so was, on the other hand, the border dispute between Czechs and Germans under Hitler.

Quote:
I do agree with the statement about disrespect toward borders escalating violence; however, whether stable borders (I'm not sure what exactly makes a "good" border) foster friendship is open to debate.

Instability of borders is one of the most common sources of violence between nations, of course it is not the only one. I think it is one of the most persistent ones. People relatively quickly forget of dynastic or religious conflicts, but the border conflics persist for long time and they also tend to bring the other conflicts back in life.

Quote:
As a counterexample: borders between democratic western Europe and the Eastern Bloc were stable for over 40 years, but this didn't foster much in the way of friendship--although perhaps one might argue that these boundaries were not "good."Wink

The Iron Curtain (except of in Berlin) copied the old historical borders which exist even now twenty years after the end of the Cold War. These borders have nothing to do with the Cold War itself.
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scrimshaw
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PostPosted: 27-Jan-10 21:31  Reply with quote

Interesting discussion
We have a saying....Good fences make good neighbors.....
Dobré ploty ze sousedúm dělají dobré přátely.....anebo něco takového.
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wer
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Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Location: East Bohemia

PostPosted: 28-Jan-10 14:47  Reply with quote

scrimshaw wrote:
Interesting discussion
We have a saying....Good fences make good neighbors.....
Dobré ploty (ze sousedů) dělají dobré přátele.....anebo něco takového.

The model for my good borders make good friends was the Czech saying dobré účty dělají dobré přátele (good accounts make good friends), but your English saying with fences is much more fitting.
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Sova
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PostPosted: 29-Jan-10 22:17  Reply with quote

wer wrote:
The recent period of non-violence between Czechs and Slovaks is only a short episode in comparison with the millenium of no border disputes. There was a lot of fighting between Czechs and Slovaks (as loyal subjects of the King of Hungary or of the Sultan of Ottoman Empire, or as soldiers of fortune in the invading armies from Asia)...

I'm not sure how "loyal" Czech and (especially) Slovak subjects were to their respective monarchs--rather they had little to no choice in the matter of fighting for king and country. I doubt that loyalty or love for the crown in most instances was a huge motivating factor. As mercenaries for hire, ... possible, but such participation of mercenaries in foreign wars tend not to cause the same political tension as the direct involvement of a people/country/ethnicity as a whole.

wer wrote:
... many religous conflicts, and even more dynastic conflicts ...

I'm not sure how much of a role Slovaks played in any religious conflict directed against the Czechs (e.g. during the Hussite Wars) or vice-verca--it sure is difficult to find mention of such online. Maybe I'm wrong, and just can't readily find such mention, but given that it's not easy to find, I'm assuming that such is not given much importance from a historical perspective.

wer wrote:
... but the most recent border dispute I'm aware of dates back to the Boleslav's reconquest of Moravia, that is to the 10th century. The border seems to be settled since the Battle of Lechfeld (August 10th, 955) which most likely ended the Boleslav's campaign in Moravia.

My point is that likely there have been no border disputes in the past 1000 years between Czechs and Slovaks, because they have largely not fought each other in the past 1000 years, except perhaps as pawns of other ruling powers.

wer wrote:
Quote:
I do agree with the statement about disrespect toward borders escalating violence; however, whether stable borders (I'm not sure what exactly makes a "good" border) foster friendship is open to debate.

Instability of borders is one of the most common sources of violence between nations, of course it is not the only one. I think it is one of the most persistent ones. People relatively quickly forget of dynastic or religious conflicts, but the border conflics persist for long time and they also tend to bring the other conflicts back in life.

I wouldn't agree with the part above I've highlighted in red. There are many Muslims who haven't forgotten the Crusades, plus, getting back to the original topic, Christians and Muslims alike in the Balkans for which religion still plays a large role in regional tensions (Worried Man mentioned this fact as well). One major reason why Serbs are so unwilling to give up claim to Kosovo is the fear that a new Islamist state might be created there, where Serb Christians might not be afforded equal freedom of religion.

And yes, Czechs love to blame religion, particularly the Catholic Church, for the Hussite Wars, now almost 600 years gone. Granted, it's not a motivator for you to renew old wars, but you have far from forgotten or forgiven.

wer wrote:
Quote:
As a counterexample: borders between democratic western Europe and the Eastern Bloc were stable for over 40 years, but this didn't foster much in the way of friendship--although perhaps one might argue that these boundaries were not "good."Wink

The Iron Curtain (except of in Berlin) copied the old historical borders which exist even now twenty years after the end of the Cold War. These borders have nothing to do with the Cold War itself.

Yes, that was my point--that the Cold War had nothing to do with borders; that even with stable borders, the neighboring countries were not friendly.
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wer
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PostPosted: 30-Jan-10 17:17  Reply with quote

Sova wrote:
I'm not sure how "loyal" Czech and (especially) Slovak subjects were to their respective monarchs…

Mostly loyal, Czechs rebelled a few times for religious reasons, sometimes they were split between two concurrent monarchs, but in general and especially in foreign affairs Czechs were loyal to their monarchs.

Slovaks rarely rebelled for religious reasons, at the most against some local landlord or against non-Christian conquerors. Slovaks were a few times involved in some rebellions of oligarchs and sometimes a minority part of Slovaks joined the army of the conquerors.

Quote:
--rather they had little to no choice in the matter of fighting for king and country. I doubt that loyalty or love for the crown in most instances was a huge motivating factor.

Before introduction of conscription, the country folk was not forced to fight for the king at all and since the introduction the people mostly supported the king during wars. Czechs massively supported the kings in wars against the Turks, against Napoleon, against Italy or against Prussia. The only case in which the king failed to gain general support for war was the WWI.

Quote:
As mercenaries for hire, ... possible, but such participation of mercenaries in foreign wars tend not to cause the same political tension as the direct involvement of a people/country/ethnicity as a whole.

The folk, while not involved in fighting, was always affected by the plundering, raids etc.

Quote:
I'm not sure how much of a role Slovaks played in any religious conflict directed against the Czechs (e.g. during the Hussite Wars) or vice-verca

No, Slovak involvement in the Hussite wars was marginal. There were a few Hussite raids in Upper Hungary, but the Slovaks mostly joined the Hussites and faced the non-Czech Catholics (In fact, the last fighting Hussites were Slovaks). At that time Slovaks were engaged rather in the war against Turks.

But there was a lot of dynastic disputes with religious background in which the Slovaks fought for the King of Hungary, that is for the Catholic side. It started right after the Hussite wars (the disputes between Czech Hussite King George and Matthias Corvinus of Hungary, his Catholic son-in-law) and culminated in the Thirty Years’ War.

Some Slovaks also fought in the non-Christian invading armies (Magyars, Cumans, Mongols, Turks…).

Quote:
it sure is difficult to find mention of such online. Maybe I'm wrong, and just can't readily find such mention, but given that it's not easy to find, I'm assuming that such is not given much importance from a historical perspective.

You have to extract it from the history of Hungary. Slovaks were not able to form a political nation before 1848 and therefore mostly figures as Hungarians in the historical books. Even the Czechs who were one of the first in Central Europe to form a political nation are often in the historigraphy, epecially the English one, incorrectly included among Austrians or Germans. (The history books say for example that Napoleon declared war on Austria, while in fact he declared war on King of Bohemia and Hungary, the so-called Austrian army consisted mostly of Czechs, Germans and Hungarians.)

Quote:
I wouldn't agree with the part above I've highlighted in red. There are many Muslims who haven't forgotten the Crusades, plus, getting back to the original topic, Christians and Muslims alike in the Balkans for which religion still plays a large role in regional tensions (Worried Man mentioned this fact as well).

You have a point here, I was thinking primarily of conflicts between Christians and the conflicts with Muslims are different.
But I still think that religous conflicts unrelated to border disputes are less persistent (compare with the situation in Spain, for example). The Balcans is cursed with conflicts which are both religious and border disputes, and that’s lethal combination. It is so because the Balcans was a battlefield for centuries-long positional war campaign between the Ottomans and Christians. I think that two centuries of stable borders can heal Balcans.

Quote:
One major reason why Serbs are so unwilling to give up claim to Kosovo is the fear that a new Islamist state might be created there, where Serb Christians might not be afforded equal freedom of religion.

In my opinion, the Serbs are more worried of the lost of territorial integrity, but fear of Islam and Islamism (that’s not the same) is present as well.

Quote:
And yes, Czechs love to blame religion, particularly the Catholic Church, for the Hussite Wars, now almost 600 years gone. Granted, it's not a motivator for you to renew old wars, but you have far from forgotten or forgiven.

Hussite Wars may be almost 600 years gone, but not so the Hussitism. Hussitism smoothly merged with the Protestantism and the religious conflicts between Catholics and Protestants are hardly 600 years gone.

The Czech conflict is definitely less vivid than analogous conflict in Britain for example. Czechs are not interested in religious beliefs of their politicians, but PM’s conversion makes headlines in Britain.

Also, a lot of the modern disputes about Hussites arise from the 19th century myth that Hussitism was an anti-German movement, and are thus unrelated to religion. It’s interesting that this myth is more persistent among Germans who likes to raise the Hussite card in disputes with Czechs.

It is also interesting that most of the foreigners, especially Americans Very Happy, like to link any Czech opinion with Hussitism or the life under Communism.

Quote:
Yes, that was my point--that the Cold War had nothing to do with borders; that even with stable borders, the neighboring countries were not friendly.

I think that the main point should be that Cold War was not conflict between nations or peoples, it was conflict of democratic states with states which were mostly against the will of their respective peoples controlled by the communists.
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AxeZ
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Novi Sad, Vojvodina

PostPosted: 31-Jan-10 1:46  Reply with quote

I must reply to this although it is bit old.
Living there I am half czech and half serbian living in Vojvodina i witnessed the bombings and wars.
First and foremost I would like to shed some light on the matter.
Serbia generally started almost every war in the former Yugoslavia.
Both Vojvodina and kosovo were territorial autonomies in Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and their autonomy was guaranteed by the constituition of 1974. In the late 80's serbia forcefully abolished those autonomies aginst the constitution. It was the trigger of all wars later on.
After abolishment of the autonomy, albanians were kicked from their worplaces, their schools, from the whole system.
Same thing happened in Vojvodina but it was not limited to nonserbs. Nonserbs and serbs alike lost their jobs in Vojvodina only because they were seen as unreliable element.
The riches of Vojvodina were plundered by serbia thus financing wars that will start onlt a year or two later.
Everything people of Vojvodina built is now destroyed, plundered, pillaged, sold to shady businessman and given as present.
Our railroads are nonexistant, our oil industry given to russians for peanuts.....
Serbia is completely useless, predatory, thieving excuse of a country.


Worried man wrote:
Greetings, everyone.
First of all, I don't want to offend anyone with this post by any means.
Second thing, please excuse my English.

I am from Serbia.

To pedro1974: thanks for starting this topic.

I really don't know anything about affaire in Tibet, though I would like to discuss about Kosovo. I am sad indeed on what is happening to my country. Looking back few decades, you'll see that:
-SFR Yugoslavia was divided, and not peacefuly (knowing that Serbs and Croats have same ancestors, everyone can see how sad this bloodsheed was)
-Remaining two countries of this country have parted ways: Montenegro parted from Serbia:
-NATO bombarded our country after war with Albanians...


Yes, well, only after serbia abolished autonomy for kosovo and Vojvodina, started wars in SLovenia, Croatia, Bosnia...etc

Quote:

To Alexx: please, remember that we really care about Kosovo, especially becouse that is not just a theritorry for us. Also, Nish is not the only Serbian town, and you did not spoke to all it's residents.
I'll try to explain why did the ones you spoke to told you not to go to Kosovo: as like as Petr_B said, they think it's not safe there (you know that it's currently unstable region, and I need to tell that few remaining Serbian monasteries are under militarry guard, and protected by barbed wires); religious and cultural diferences and conflicts are too strong. And, I'll need to remind you that they did not flee from Kosovo willingly.



You are forgetting to tell that huge ammount of serbs left kosovo before the war after selling their homes to albanians for riddiculosly high prices.
It really shows how much you care about kosovo

Quote:

About the crimes during war time: I really don't know who commited more of them, but I know booth sides did. For example, my friend told me about the video he saw: Serbian baby was crucified on the wall house. Can you imagine that? I cried after I heard that. Couldn't sleep for days.



Oh please...your friend told you what he saw at a friends friend house a video borrowed from a friend. You are very naive. Only facts please, although you are right that everyone commited attrocities.



Quote:

To BMoody: It is hard to explain, as our cultural diferences are huge. Anyway, we are all taught to love our country with all hearth.


You mean the one serbia helped by destroying it...you know, the one, original SFRJ?

Quote:

We just follow the moralle codexs'. *She then went on about how she and her family would fight and die for Serbia. Scary stuff aye?*, you said. I don't mean to offend you with this, but take a look on what you said: it's not scarry to a girl, and is to you? Her words are patriotic, and if your country was in such a terrible conditions, under the treath, you would think and tell same words, if you were a patriot.


Blah, they are all brave when in another country

Quote:

Our country is small. (Btw, do you know about the Thermopile battle and king Leonidas?) But most of us are ready to defend it, despite the dangers and owerwhelming powers that can attack her. I think it's ok. What do you people think about that?


Yeah, a small country you are, so small you managed to attack and invade every other small country in the neighborhood.

Quote:

Please understand that we are not barbarians. And one more thing: I am really offended and sad to see that Serbs are taken for terrorists. We are not terrorists! Please understand that!


No....you only managed to trigger World War One by a terrorist attack on a crown prince of the neighboring empire.

Quote:

And what made me upset were some videos I saw:
foreign soldiers (peacekeepers) torturing and killing dogs on Kosovo;
old woman (about 70-80 years old) was beaten by group of Albanians, who ruined her house after that...


Really, a dog.......shame on them.
How about a video os serb soldiers killing 16-years old boys by shooting them in the back in Srebrenica....wanna see this one. I can provide a link if you wish



Quote:

Someone said that Serbs occupied Kosovo. Please, remember that Kosovo is Serbian theritorry. And more, as I said before. If anyone wants to know what Kosovo is to Serbia, please find some info on Battle of Kosovo, jully 28. 1389. and kniaz Lazar.


Well, you forgot to tell the audience that serbs eventually lost that battle and the right to kosovo for the next...well, 500 years.
So kosovo was essentialy Turkey more then it was serbia by a large magnitude.
ALso a Vojvodina was never serbia and serbia shoved its troops to Vojvodina after WWI and used bogus referendum where only 30% of the population were allowed to vote to make it "join"to serbia. After that it's all downthehill for Vojvodina which was once a developed part of the Europe until it "became" serbia. Let's face it...serbia is totally incompetent sorry excuse of a country.


Quote:

There is one more thing that I want to tell: there are many Romanians and Hungarians in north Serbia (Vojvodina) and a great number of muslims north-west of Kosovo - the part of our country that borders to Montenegro. Are these lands going to be taken from us, too?



Vojvodina is NOT your land..remember...you occupied it..never was serbia. It was developed part of Europe until serbia annexed it

Quote:

I am really worried. I am affraid there will be war again. Please do not support Kosovo independence!



What war....?? Serbia started most of the wars


Quote:

I am only 18 and I might not be competent to talk about this, but I really love my country, and want to know what do foreigners think about our case.
Thanks for understanding, and thanks in advance for your replies.



Well, I am 36 and I loved my country which serbia essentially destroyed and I love my homeland of Vojvodina which serbia is destroying as we speak.
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scrimshaw
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PostPosted: 31-Jan-10 23:48  Reply with quote

Still a lot of animosity and hard feelings. Hard to move into the future with all that.
Each people(the different nations) see only the real and perceived wrong doings of the others.
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AxeZ
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Novi Sad, Vojvodina

PostPosted: 02-Feb-10 21:25  Reply with quote

scrimshaw wrote:
Still a lot of animosity and hard feelings. Hard to move into the future with all that.
Each people(the different nations) see only the real and perceived wrong doings of the others.


You can't move into the future when you are constantly being molested, stripped of everything you earn and humiliated.
This thievery has first to stop so we could have something to build our future width!
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scrimshaw
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PostPosted: 03-Feb-10 23:45  Reply with quote

Axez...I did not mean to sound judgmental. I am not there, so I don't feel the emotions and passions. It was just an observation on my part.
But maybe such a simple observation can only be made by the detached observer.
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AxeZ
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007
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Location: Novi Sad, Vojvodina

PostPosted: 04-Feb-10 22:48  Reply with quote

No worries, scrimshaw.
Let me give you an example....you take for instance USA where you live.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Florida is one of the most developed states in the US, biggest income,production, everything and for instance there is...I don't know...mississippi which is much underdeveloped ( appologies to all mississippians, this is only for conversation sake )
For instance, Mississipi was once one country, Florida was in another and the times has come that both states participate in sigle union...but....Mississippi wants to control everything..and thus imposes to every other state some riddiculpus taxes...some 23 of them, and whatever is made in Florida is taken away by Mississipi...all the taxes are paid to Mississippi and not Florida...all the land in Florida now belongs to Mississippi, all roads are now property of Mississippi...etc, etc....and everything that now Mississippi owns was built by good, hard working people of FLorida..

That was the case wiith Vojvodina, that was the case with Kosovo and Serbia is Mississippi.
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