Russian tanks enter South Ossetia

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Alan_Scotland
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Russian tanks enter South Ossetia

Postby Alan_Scotland » 08-Aug-08 20:33

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Georgian President Mikhail Saakasvili, who has called on reservists to sign up for duty, said "150 Russian tanks, armoured personnel carriers and other vehicles" had entered South Ossetia.

"This is a clear intrusion on another country's territory. We have Russian tanks on our territory, jets on our territory in broad daylight," Reuters new agency quoted him as saying.

"I must also tell you that Georgian forces have downed two Russian jet fighters over Georgia's territory."

It appears to have happened under the cover of the Olympic Games opening ceremony.
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Postby Irena M » 09-Aug-08 1:14

This happened just today? :shock:
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Postby eso » 09-Aug-08 8:20

The region is troubled for some time. Russia has been trying to increase its influence in Ossetta in similar way as it is trying to do it in other regions of former USSR.

Ethnic tensions between Ossetians and Georgians in South Ossetia in last years left several hundreds of dead and wounded and created a large tide of refugees on the both sides.

Authoritative rule of Mikheil Saakashvili, who supresses freedom of speech and political opposition with force doesn't help either. Yet USA supports him.
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Postby Sova » 11-Aug-08 16:31

What I can't understand is why Russia granted Russian citizenship to South Ossetians when it has been a part of the Georgian Republic (and Georgian SSR before that) for decades. Hence, of course, Russia sees this as protecting their own citizens, who interestingly enough want to be independent of both Russia and Georgia.

And yes, I agree that the US has no business there.
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Postby wer » 11-Aug-08 18:13

Sova wrote:What I can't understand is why Russia granted Russian citizenship to South Ossetians when it has been a part of the Georgian Republic (and Georgian SSR before that) for decades.


That's because Russians ask "Why not?" instead. Russian foreign policy is primitively imperialistic for centuries.

Hence, of course, Russia sees this as protecting their own citizens, who interestingly enough want to be independent of both Russia and Georgia.


I hope you don't think this is the real motivation of Russia, that's just a formal excuse for invasion into another sovereign country.

And yes, I agree that the US has no business there.


I don't think so. I agree it is useless to escalate the conflict, but the West should support Georgia diplomatically, economically and with the supplies of weapons.

I know there are tendencies in the American administrative to exchange "Georgia for Iran", but I think the better and more pragmatical exchange is "Georgia for Tibet". (Well, the best exchange was "Kosovo for Georgia", but that's passé.)
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Postby Sova » 13-Aug-08 2:16

wer wrote:That's because Russians ask "Why not?" instead. Russian foreign policy is primitively imperialistic for centuries.

Good answer! :lol:

wer wrote:I hope you don't think this is the real motivation of Russia, that's just a formal excuse for invasion into another sovereign country.

Of course not, or at least not at a political level. What the common Russian thinks, who knows?

wer wrote:I don't think so. I agree it is useless to escalate the conflict, but the West should support Georgia diplomatically, economically and with the supplies of weapons.

Perhaps, although the region they are fighting over doesn't really want either Georgian or Russian rule, so I'd consider that an internal Georgian affair (as far as I understand, when Georgia split from Russia, the internationally-recognized boundaries of Georgia included South Ossetia).
I don't really want to escalate American-Russian tensions any more that they are already over the European missile defense proposal.

Mainly, I hope that the US doesn't try to recognize the sovereignty of South Ossetia during this mess. Definitely, the US and other countries should push hard for an immediate cease fire and a return to negotiations in the region.
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Postby eso » 13-Aug-08 6:34

Of course not, or at least not at a political level. What the common Russian thinks, who knows?


It seems obvious from Russian forums and blogs - Russia is great and West is evil. Georgia was puppet of USA.

Some examples here:
http://kylekeeton.com/


wer wrote:Perhaps, although the region they are fighting over doesn't really want either Georgian or Russian rule, so I'd consider that an internal Georgian affair (as far as I understand, when Georgia split from Russia, the internationally-recognized boundaries of Georgia included South Ossetia).


What is interesting is that South Ossetia is mostly rocky wasteland, where lived only about 70 000 pople.
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Postby eso » 13-Aug-08 11:07

Russia says Czechs export arms to Georgia en masse.
http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/index_view.php?id=327868

Are we next "peacekeeping" target? ;)
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Postby wer » 13-Aug-08 13:28

Sova wrote:What the common Russian thinks, who knows?

They think they were great empire in the past, but the empire collapsed because of the conspiracy of the West. They think they have good leader now (Putin), not anymore the puppets of the West (Yeltsin). They think they are going to be a great empire again and are eager to demonstrate the power of "new" Russia. In short, the state of Russian minds is similar to that one of poor Germans before the WWII. Just read the Russian blogs as eso suggested, or even the English blogs, they are now flooded by comments of Russians.

Perhaps, although the region they are fighting over doesn't really want either Georgian or Russian rule...

The region is too small to become an independent state and it is clearly within the natural borders of Georgia - it is separated from Russia (and North Ossetia) by mountains.

...so I'd consider that an internal Georgian affair (as far as I understand, when Georgia split from Russia, the internationally-recognized boundaries of Georgia included South Ossetia).

Recognized by Russia itself!!

I don't really want to escalate American-Russian tensions any more that they are already over the European missile defense proposal.

Ah, the Russian authorities are not scared at all by that proposal, they just play a theatre for the poor Russians and the useful idiots in Europe. The real disputes are somewhere else.

Mainly, I hope that the US doesn't try to recognize the sovereignty of South Ossetia during this mess.

Nor later.

Definitely, the US and other countries should push hard for an immediate cease fire and a return to negotiations in the region.

Actually, I think US should be not vocal about this conflict. It is better to help France discreetly (= to press it into the right stances :wink:), since France is eager to play a big role here. Czech Republic could be quite helpful here because it succeeds the current French presidentship.
This is the best variant, it could give a vent to the Russian anti-American passions, decoy Sárközy from his Mediterranean adventures to the real problems of Europe and undermine the Russian-German alliance.

eso wrote:What is interesting is that South Ossetia is mostly rocky wasteland, where lived only about 70 000 pople.

But it is vitally important for Georgia from the defensive perspective. The Russians want to break through the natural frontiers of Georgia. Without that region, Georgia is as defenseless as Czechoslovakia after the Munich dictate.

Russia says Czechs export arms to Georgia en masse.
http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/index_view.php?id=327868

And they are right! But it is interesting they don't mention we export arms to Russia as well. :wink:
The massive supplies of Georgia with arms and ammunition is one of the best things we have done in the last years. Russia is especially pissed off because it is mostly Russian made equipment we have from the Cold War era.

Are we next "peacekeeping" target?

No, that's Transnistria or Belarus.
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Postby eso » 13-Aug-08 13:50

wer wrote:
Sova wrote:What the common Russian thinks, who knows?

They think they were great empire in the past, but the empire collapsed because of the conspiracy of the West. They think they have good leader now (Putin), not anymore the puppets of the West (Yeltsin). They think they are going to be a great empire again and are eager to demonstrate the power of "new" Russia. In short, the state of Russian minds is similar to that one of poor Germans before the WWII. Just read the Russian blogs as eso suggested, or even the English blogs, they are now flooded by comments of Russians.


It's frightening that many Russians believe that former Soviet satellites are very ungrateful when they refused to stay in Russian "family". They see 1968 invasion into CSSR as great assistance, because "you had contrarevolution there"

One my /Czech/ friend said: The Russian will praise eternal all-Slavic brotherhood, then he will drink vodka with you, then he will get drunk and then he will smash you face, because you aren't brotherly enough.

Are we next "peacekeeping" target?

No, that's Transnistria or Belarus.

Maybe Ukraine?

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