declension

Discussion in 'Grammar & Pronunciation' started by awsoukup, Dec 22, 2003.

  1. awsoukup

    awsoukup New Member

    I have been reading about Czech on the net for some time now and am rather perplexed on the entire issue of declining nouns. The whole process seems altogether irregular. Is there any way to predict the stem changes, or is the whole process hit and miss?

    Thanks
     
  2. Kikko

    Kikko Well-Known Member

    Yea there's.

    For example nouns are divided into masculine, feminine and neuter.
    Masculine nouns are divided into animate and inanimate.
    Animate ones are divided into vocal and consonant ending. Each of them is then divided into having a last soft or hard consconant.

    So for example pan (masculine, animate, hard consonant) has the same declension of tatinek.

    Sure then there are also some irregular rules. For example, the most of masculine nouns ending in consonant and having a 'e' before it, lose that e in the root.

    Also, masculine animate hard consonant nouns may have a different singular vocative.
    Those ending in k, h and ch take -u, the others -e

    So the singular is:
    pan, pana, panovi, pana, pane, panovi, panem
    tatinek, tatinka, tatinkovi, tatinka, tatinku, tatinkovi, tantinkem

    As you may see they got the same endings apart vocative (one ends with k)

    Adjectives are divided into 2 groups only and have their own declesions and so on...


    So well first you have to learn guide-nouns declensions [​IMG]

    [This message has been edited by Kikko (edited 22-12-2003).]
     
  3. Dana

    Dana Well-Known Member

  4. digitaliz

    digitaliz Active Member

    Ahoj! [​IMG])
    I have a question about declension. I can't find a table for masculine nouns ending with an S (los, les etc) ...
    Is s a hard or a soft consonant?
     
  5. Kikko

    Kikko Well-Known Member

    without hacek is hard, with hacek soft
    Just check the list of hard and soft consonants [​IMG]
     
  6. Dana

    Dana Well-Known Member

    Nouns ending with an -s fall into a special category. They follow the declension of "hrad" (masculine, inanimate, hard ending), except for the genitive and locative.

    1. hrad - les
    2. hradu - lesa
    3. hradu - lesu
    4. hrad - les
    5. hrade - lese
    6. hradu - lese
    7. hradem - lesem
     
  7. Kikko

    Kikko Well-Known Member

    doesnt pes behave like pan?
    pes, psa, psovi, psa, ...
     
  8. Dana

    Dana Well-Known Member

    Yes Kikko, sorry, I was referring to inanimate nouns ending with -s. Thinking about it, the whole first sentence I wrote in my previous post is wrong. I'm actually not sure what the rule is about nouns ending with -s (if there is a rule). I can't think of any other nouns that exactly follow the declension of "les". E.g. "ples" (a ball - where people dance) behaves like "hrad" while the locative can be both "plesu" and "plese". "Los" (a lottery ticket, not the animal) also behaves like "hrad". "Los" as the animal (a moose) is animate and follows the declension of "pán". So it's possible that "les" is in its own special category. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.
     
  9. digitaliz

    digitaliz Active Member

    Thanks Dana! I knew there was a reason why you left out "s" in the declension tables... [​IMG]
     
  10. Bohaemus

    Bohaemus Well-Known Member

    GENITIV SING. O-KMENŮ:

    Ve staročeštině měla všechna jména s o-kmenem v genitivě koncovku -a bez ohledu na rod:

    bez chlapa, duba, oráča, meča, města, mořa.

    Ve 12. st. došlo k přehlasování krátkého -a na konci slova po měkké souhlásce na -ě (v nč. -e):

    oráča -> oráčě (-> oráče), ... mečě, ... mořě;

    U jmen neživotných se rozšířilo užívání koncovky -u (genitivní koncovka u-kmenů), nicméně některá slova dodnes zachovala starší koncovku -a.

    Jsou to:

    1) jména místní, která nejsou též významu obecného: z Berouna, Náchoda, Jičína, Krakova, Říma atd. Ale: z Brodu, Mostu, Písku, Vyšehradu, Nového Sadu atd.
    Zvláštnost: z Újezda/z újezdu.

    2) jména měsíců: ledna, února, března, atd. Ale: listopadu.

    3) jména dnů: od pondělka do čtvrtka, od včerejška do dneška, zítřka. Ale: od pátku.

    4) tato jednotlivá slova (výčet není úplný!): rybník, dobytek, duch, hřbitov, chléb, chlév, jazyk, kalich, klášter, komín, kostel, les, oves, mlýn, ocet, ostrov, potok, sklep, svět, sýr, večer, zákon, život, tábor, kout, oběd, popel (popela i popelu), týl (týla i týlu), národ (národa i národu), bochník (bochníka i bochníku).
    Zvláštnost: půl roku/do roka, snu/ze sna.

    -----

    Tato slova se řadí ke (pod-)vzoru les (bez ohledu na koncovou souhlásku), koncové -s má také oves (bez ovsa).

    [This message has been edited by Bohaemus (edited 16-01-2004).]
     
  11. Bohaemus

    Bohaemus Well-Known Member

    LOKÁL SING. VZORU HRAD:

    má koncovku -ě/-e nebo -u:

    v zákoně i zákonu, v rybníce i rybníku, o jazyce i jazyku, na papíře i papíru, v kožiše i kožichu, atd.

    Některá slova mívají pouze -ě/-e:

    v domě, ve mlýně, po obědě, po roce, atd.

    Jiná zase mají pouze -u (zejména zakončená na -k, -g, -h, -ch, -r, ale není to pravidlo!):

    na křtu, na pohřbu, na břehu, na vrchu, v prachu, o hrachu, o dialogu, v míru, v motoru, atd.

    Slova na -ek a -ík mají koncovku -u:

    v domku, na sloupku, po chodníku, atd.

    Jména měsíců mají -u: v lednu, v únoru, atd.

    Jména místní mívají zpravidla -ě/-e:

    v Berouně, Jičíně, Krakově, Římě, Újezdě, Táboře, Mostě, Brodě, na Vyšehradě, v Novém Sadě, atd.
    zřídka mívají -u (zejména po souhláskách zadopatrových): v Písku, Žebráku, atd.
     
  12. Dana

    Dana Well-Known Member

    Great response and explanation Bohaemus and thank you for the examples! It's a pity your post is not in English so everyone could understand it and learn from it.
     
  13. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    If you're ever unsure of a denclension, you can always look it up in the "Pravidla Ceskeho Pravopisu" at

    http://www.pravidla.cz/

    It's a wonderful site (it comes in a book, too, although it's probably all but impossible to find anywhere outside of the CR).
     
  14. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

    Wow this is great. How many boxes of anything sweet, expensive or illegal do I have to airmail over to CR to get someone to send me this in book form? LOL... (and kidding...)

    Thanks Sova.

    Shawn
     
  15. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Actually, after writing that last comment about the book not being available outside of the CR, I viewed a post on another topic (by CZfan) which listed a good website to get Czech books. I found "Pravidla Ceskeho Pravopisu" on that site. Here's the link:

    http://www.czech-books.com/CBweb/shopexd.asp?id=1955

    or there's an academic version as well:

    http://www.czech-books.com/CBweb/shopexd.asp?id=659

    I assume the second is the more comprehensive of the two, given the description they listed on the sites. I have an older version (~1994), but it's still worth its weight in gold!

    Enjoy!
     
  16. szkott

    szkott Member

    I am also having trouble remembering the various exceptions. Anyone have any memory tricks for this? 14 "gender types" x 14 cases, + exceptions is a lot to learn... I also want to thank Bohaemus for his help.

    To paraphrase Bohaemus:
    Certain words, due to the rules of Old Czech, have retained the older genitive ending ‘–a’ up to the present day.
    These are:

    1) place names which do not also have a familiar meaning, e.g. z Berouna, Náchoda, Jičína, Krakova, Říma, etc.
    Those place names with familiar meanings, such as the following, take the ending ‘-u’: z Brodu, Mostu, Písku, Vyšehradu, Nového Sadu, etc.

    2) names of months: ledna, února, března, etc.; except: listopadu

    3) names of days: od pondělka, do čtvrtka, od včerejška, do dneška, do zítřka; except: od pátku.

    4) the following words [exceptions] (not a complete list!):
    rybník [my dictionary says: rybníku], dobytek, duch, hřbitov, chléb, chlév?, jazyk, kalich?, klášter [my dictionary says: klášteru], komín [my dictionary says: komína/komínu], kostel, les, oves, mlýn, ocet, ostrov, potok?, sklep?, svět, sýr, večer, zákon, život, tábor [my dictionary says: tábora/táboru; however the city is clearly Tábora], kout, oběd, popel (popela/popelu), týl (týla/týlu), národ (národa/národu), bochník (bochníka/bochníku)

    The ones with question marks, e.g kalich?, I couldn't verify and, as you can see, my dictionary (www.wiktionary.org/) had different entries for some words. For the ones where both endings are possible, is there a regional preference?
     
  17. bibax

    bibax Well-Known Member

    I am Praguer (Pražan), born in Prague. My preferences:

    genitive - locative

    spadnout do rybníka (never do rybníku!), utopit se v rybníce
    jít do chléva, narodit se ve chlévě
    pít z kalicha, v kalichu (v kališe sounds archaic)
    jít do kláštera, pobývat v klášteře
    z komína se kouřilo, v komíně
    spadnout do potoka (never do potoku!), utopit se v potoce
    jít do sklepa pro uhlí, být zavřen ve sklepě
    do tábora, ve vojenském táboře/na pionýrském táboře
    vstát z popela jako Phoenix, péci brambory v popelu
    dát někomu ránu do týla, v týlu nepřítele
    dějiny národa (rarely národu) českého, v národě
    kus bochníku (bochníka is also possible), v bochníku (bochníce)

    I must say that as a child I rarely used such words like kalich (chalice), klášter (monastery) and chlév (cowshed, stable). We had no cowsheds, but I often chodil pro uhlí do sklepa.

    It is possible that I was influenced by school more than I could think. My first "comrade teachress" (souška učitelka) of the Czech language was from South Moravia (she spoke Literary Czech, of course).
     
  18. szkott

    szkott Member

    thanks bibax!

    when you say "rarely národu" do you mean there are certain instances in which národu sounds better or just that you've heard some people say národu before?

    I probably won't ever have to use kalich either, I am only going to memorize the most common ones - my brother-in-law has a stable, but he calls it a "bude" (bouda?).
     
  19. bibax

    bibax Well-Known Member

    Yes, there is an important instance, a key work about the Czech history:

    "Dějiny národu českého v Čechách a v Moravě" written by František Palacký (19th cent.).

    I should say "Dějiny národa..." but I am not Palacký.

    BTW there is a popular saying: Máš keců jako Palacký. = You are loquaciuos (prattling) like Palacký.
     
  20. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Are your preferences strict?

    I myself have strong tendency to differentiate the declension for different meanings.

    1) I do differentiate the declension for words with more meanings:

    do klína (část těla) × do klínu (ostatní významy)
    do týla (část hlavy) × do týlu (zázemí)

    2) I tend to differentiate between location (both kde? and kam?) and other meanings:

    na táboře (where?) × na táboru (no location)
    Odpovědnost za děti na táboře je na táboru.

    do tábora (where to?) × do táboru (no direction)
    navážet se do tábora = be brought (trucked) into the camp
    navážet se do táboru ~ to complain about the camp

    3) I tend to differentiate between the very object and the inside of the object:

    nalít víno do kalicha = to pour wine into (the inside of) cup
    strčit do kalichu = to shove the cup
    strčit (něco) do kalicha = to put (something) into (the inside of) cup

    dým stoupá z komína = smoke goes from the (inside of) chimney
    sebevrah skočil z komínu = a suicide jumped down (from) the smokestack
     

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