Bush and U.S. Foreign Policy

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by usak, Apr 1, 2005.

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  1. KJP

    KJP Well-Known Member

    You mistook my meaning. If someone had asked me my opinion of US policy, which no one did, you would have found it to be like yours. I didnt agree with the invasion, nor vote for Bush, but in the end, I have but one vote in 280 million. Once cast, fat lady has sung, I will abide by my country and support it, even when wrong. Its global, every nation has made mistakes, if their citizens just packed up in fear instead of remaining loyal, well... thats what makes a nation great...

    It was a great answer, but I really learned the most from the last sentence...

    *crunched for time right now :(
  2. czechchris

    czechchris Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, but that is just not true. The tacit (and active) approval of a regime which is manifestly doing wrong is not loyalty. Were the German people making Germany great by being "loyal" to the Nazi regime? No, it is incumbent on personal conscience to stand out against what is wrong. The concept of "my country, right or wrong" - nationalism - is at the bottom of many, if not most, of the problems in the world.

    Just my two penn'orth
  3. uuspoiss

    uuspoiss Well-Known Member

    Not that it's really relevant to the nice little quarrel here, but AFAIK the CR did send people and still has a number of them posted in Iraq.
  4. idemtidem

    idemtidem Well-Known Member

    Yes, true. But those people were not participating in the fights. That was a chemical unit that was there in case there was a chemical attack. They were supposed to protect anybody who could be affected. I don't think they're there anymore (?). Now, there's a military hospital.

    Oh, I just noticed. Oops - it was a typo...I meant to say that the CR was not in a war with Iraq. :oops:
  5. usak

    usak Well-Known Member

    Look what I can do mommy! Make an 11 page aregument! :lol:
    Ive read all this and still I see nothing that makes Bush a bad person. So he has Haliburton stock, so what?!? That was his previous job. Saudi Arabians had talks with him..OH mY!

    Of course the USA put Saddam in power, thats general knowledge. But did George Bush put him in Power? No W is taking him down, something that the 2 preceding presidents teased at but failed to do. Yes its true even Clinton (A democrat! ) attack Saddam. But did he do anything more? No Saddam act like he complied and got away with it. Bush Sr. Just let him off the hook period.
  6. idemtidem

    idemtidem Well-Known Member

    Except the original question was whether or not the majority of Czechs support Bush. Not to determine his "badness". The thing is that anybody who cares enough to respond to this post, will not change their mind about the subject! So nobody was really trying to convince you one way or the other. Just presenting different points of view - I believe that way you can learn to respect your opponents' opinions through understanding the reasoning behind them.
  7. whatgives

    whatgives Member

    If it's so funny, why did you bother contributing to this 11 page arguement???
    You don't think that there is anything wrong with starting a war under false pretenses? Scary! U.N. inspectors weren't even allowed to finish their job.
    Hmmmmm, let's look at the Bush administration: Dick Cheney was the Chief Executive of Haliburton oil; Commerce Secretary Donald Evans held stock valued between $5m and $25m in Tom Brown Inc, the oil and gas exploration company he headed; National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice was a director of Chevron; and then Bush Jr. himself started Arbusto Energy and was director of Harken Energy Corp. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Are all these ties between the Bush Administration and the oil industry and this administration's fervent need to kick Saddam's a** just a coincidence? I think not. A conflict of interest? Most likely.
    Ya, it may never happen again with Saddam, but as long as the U.S. maintains the same stance on foreign policy it will just happen with someone else.

    P.S. Idemtidem is right. Regardless of whether anyone ends up changing their mind on this topic, it is important to understand all points of view in order to fully understand and effectively argue your own.
  8. Silatsiaq

    Silatsiaq Member

    Ahoj Sovo,

    When I “think by myself”, I forcedly ask me questions about why US feel so compelled to “promote democracy” and “free Iraqi people”, when in many other countries they encouraged autocratic, dictatorial regimes… sometimes directly discouraged the efforts for a real democratic government.

    I feel redundant saying that similar actions ( i. e. killing civilians in order to attain whatever goal), when done by different states or organisations, are labelled differently. Terrorism or collateral damage? Of course when you call an action “terrorist” it legitimates your actions against it… But when it’s “collateral damage”, then it’s just oh-an egg you had to broke in order to make the omelette… Sorry, but I do not think this distinction is valid for the people that are killed…

    And about propaganda:

    If this whole american discourse about “bringing democracy to Iraq” and « freeing Iraqi » people is not propaganda, well I think the communist’s speeches about the “imperialist danger of the West” and “rotten capitalism” were not propaganda either…
  9. ursula

    ursula Well-Known Member

    well, the precedent has been set, the next time it should be easier the next time we might be invading the un, with condoleeza in the lead.. i hate to say, lets hope that most of us will remember a different precedent, the one about the nuremberg laws
  10. IloveAmerica

    IloveAmerica Active Member

    Some people on this board, not to name any names ("KJP")
    have a really hard time being able to read a post and then
    reply to it. If you are unable to simply answer a few basic Q
    (Q stands for question in case its too late and you missed nap time)
    so that i can reply to them properly.
    If KJP is able to reply in full context to what was asked ill reply, otherwise
    ill be left to assumed he is "challanged". Maybe some shrapnel in the old
    noggin ?
    I hope i did a good job at keeping his name a secret, hopefully i didnt pull a Bush.
  11. IloveAmerica

    IloveAmerica Active Member

    Yes being Jamican means i cannot be racist. What are you trying to say ? I have many a time heard whitie complain about discrimation in the work place in Jamica and the goverment says it does't deal with that issue. Wonderfully the same goes for america, the goverment doesn't entertain that type of racism. Maybe because it doesn't happen and we are too cultured.
  12. IloveAmerica

    IloveAmerica Active Member

    Gas'd his own people ? Did he fart in a jar and make them smell it ?
    The humanity !

    or did he get it from america or britan ?
    he got that militart industrial strength fart gas from
    the same countries who biatch at him after he stops
    representing american interest in the region. only then
    is he a bad nut job.
  13. IloveAmerica

    IloveAmerica Active Member

    You kow those commies from China and Russia are not like genetic
    clones that have been modified.
    I remember hearing terms like "evil empire" amoung other
    things about these commie pinkos (before you know it they will
    want to give out free lunches at school in america and public health
    care) but now these same "EVIL" people have magically transfromed
    themsevles into "non evil" people.
    How does that really work ?
    i mean every freedom loving russian and china dude were flag waving commie "EVILdoerz". If you went to russia and started talking to acidemics there uncle sam would like write ur name down and keep tabs and label you a "Commie Sympatizer" before you know it.
    You could have lost you job, you neighbours wouldnt talk to you, it was terrible (well i dont really like some of my neighbours so i guess that parts ok)
    These are the same people. How does that magically happend ? the metamorphasis ?
    I mean maybe there is just somthing i missed in biology class, you know
    diffution or something, maybe it was ossmosis, the transformation of
    evil liquid to good liquid through a permiable membrane.
    So a magical transformation occured OR maybe lets see,
    maybe they really were not evil. because if they were
    then why are we so nice to such evil people b4 ? It was obviosuly
    an exageration propaganda spin.
  14. IloveAmerica

    IloveAmerica Active Member

    yes i serve my country and i do it every day. i dont do it by
    grabbing a gun (loose in the street or in uniform) cause if some a-hole told me to or asked me to go kill people id say "f-u if u dont like this saddam dude, then u shouldnt have supported the retard for years and help get him into power"
    i serve my country by defending things like the CONSTITUTION ever
    heard of it ? defending rights and virtues that some like Dick Head and Bush whacker would rather go ape sh*t all over it with a white out.
  15. IloveAmerica

    IloveAmerica Active Member

    and possibly your not human
  16. IloveAmerica

    IloveAmerica Active Member

    Well i guess some people like kissing goverment ass
    more then otherz.
  17. KJP

    KJP Well-Known Member

    I love america, try to post once, that way we dont have 12 pages of....you. You served your country? You made it clear that you didnt...to serve means to have served in the armed forces, but I must admit, your answer was better than the last person I asked that to, which claimed yes, I pay my taxes! You support the constitution, how admirable, but you really havent a choice, love it or leave it....

    Your use of profanity is indicative of something, and you reference the police as if you've been in a few altercations with them also....
    so the veteran thing seems to have been sidestepped, which was the original question...

    your two cents are worth less than a penny...

    Moreover, you refer to flatulence with grave disregard to those that lost their lives:

    On March 16th 1988, Iraqi jets bombed the town of Halabja with chemical weapons. At least 5,000 people were killed and 7,000 severely injured. Fourteen years on, thousands are still suffering the affects of the chemical weapons.

    The gases used included mustard gas, nerve agents sarin, tabun and VX. This was the largest chemical attack on a civilian population ever.

    Of all the atrocities committed against the Kurds during the Anfal Campaign, Halabja has come to symbolize the worst of the repression of Iraqi Kurds.

    For three days, the town and surrounding districts were unmercifully attacked with bombs, artillery fire, and chemicals. The chemical weapons were the most destructive of life. At least 5,000 people died immediately as a result of the chemical attack and it is estimated that up to 12,000 people in all died during the course of those three days.

    Humanitarian and charity clinics in the close by areas are encountered with unthinkable forms of disease and deformity among survivors. Miscarriages and birth defects are also commonplace

    your two cents are worth less than a penny...

    There are hundreds if not thousands of documented cases about Saddam's acts of tyranny, torture and mass murder of Kurds in particular, and Iraqi people in general. Kurds all around the world have family members or friends who have lost their lives or suffered horrifically at the hands of the Iraqi regime
  18. hint

    hint Member

    Well he gassed his own people but US/UN didnt take any action anyway. Even the two years later first Gulf war wasnt for any human rights but again for oil and it started after an invitation from Saudis but in the end the coallition forces let him go.
  19. KJP

    KJP Well-Known Member

    No, it was for Human rights, just like when he invaded Kuwait, how anyone can defend such a madman as he is beyond me. If he had the ability to gas his own people, he certainly would not have hesitated to use WMD's if he had them...so now I have provoked you to use the no WMD case to further your plight of defending a world leader that carries firearms and uses them daily on TV. I wonder how you feel about his wealth (and his sons) compared to the poverty that the average Iraqi lives in? I wonder if the Kurds would appreciate your views (since they are Iraqi also and neither of us are)

    Shall we turn a blind eye to Iran or N. Korea if they are developing nukes? Your opinion?

    When you started your sentence with "well" it is like appeasing..."well, that may be true but...

    would you feel better if it were for gold, or water, instead of oil? Is your opinion that the only time war is warrented is when H. rights are violated? The world would be at never ending war then...
  20. whatgives

    whatgives Member

    I re-read the last 2 pages of posts and I didn't see where you directly asked ILoveAmerica if he was a veteran. The question was asked of you.

    That's pretty scary! The good ole U.S.A is the land of the free, but people don't have the choice to either support or oppose the constitution? Talk about irony!
    Is there anything wrong with that? You seem to be implying that ILoveAmerica would have been at fault (otherwise why would you have made the remark?). When the police are overstepping their bounds a person has every right to defend themselves.
    That he is passionate about the topic? Profanity is much better than bombing innocent civilians.
    Maybe ILoveAmerica made light of the situation, however, ILoveAmerica did not deny that Saddam gassed his people, so there is no need for the long list of proofs. ILoveAmerica asked you to question who provided Saddam with the gases in the first place.
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