Clarification and expansion on this sentence

Discussion in 'Grammar & Pronunciation' started by Calvario, Dec 2, 2006.

  1. Calvario

    Calvario Well-Known Member

    Říkají, že se tahle kniha zabývá zajímavými problémy české i ruské literatury. Slyšel jste o ní někdy?

    They say that this book deals with interesting problems of both Czech and Russian literature. Have you heard of it.

    1st question: Are české and ruské both in the genitive feminine singular? It seems to me that the word "of" is inserted automatically here in the English. Just for an example. If I were to write "khih" nothing else, would it mean "OF books" Then again I could be wrong about the case here.

    2nd question has to do with the end. What does "...O ni někdy"? mean. How do they get "..Of it" from that. Almost seems like a literal translation would be "Have you heard about sometime about never". Ni- is a prefix and it is standing alone here I can only assume that it refers to nikdy, is this correct? I thought that the demonstrative pronoun "Ten" was used for "it" I heard IT I saw IT etc etc. Unless "O" implies "about IT" without using a word for IT but is implied in the word alone. So it could read "...About IT sometime, never"? A kind of contrast.

  2. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Yes, in accordance with "literatury".
    English "of" corresponds to Czech genitive without preposition.

    of books = knih (gen.)
    a lot of people = hodně lidí (gen.)
    tower of castle = věž hradu (gen.)

    In English, you can use possesion instead of "of" (tower of castle -> castle's tower) or simply connect more nouns (tower of castle -> castle tower). In Czech, we can use sometimes adjective to express the same (věž hradu -> hradní věž).

    In English, it is also possible to

    O ní means about it. is locative of feminine pronoun ona. It's impossible to use ten, since kniha is feminine.

    O ní (=about it) stands for o té knize (=about the/that book).

    Někdy means sometime(s), in question it means ever or before.

    Slyšel jste o ní někdy?
    Have you ever heard about/of it?
    Have you heard about/of it before?
  3. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Neslyšel jsi o ni nikdy?=You have never heard of that? Right?

    Nemluvíme o ničem.
    Mluvíme o ničem.

    Is one of these gramatically incorrect?
    It seems the two statements could be subtly different in meaning.
  4. Calvario

    Calvario Well-Known Member

    Sorry that I wasn't more specific about the second part of my question about using "TEN" I didn't mean "ten" literally but was just refering to demonstrative prouns in general. In other words could one say this´?

    "Slyšel jste o té někdy". To mean: Have you heard of/about IT ever?
    "Slyšel jste o té". To mean: Have you heard of/about IT?

    Or is it necessay to use "NÍ"

    Can you use either the one or the other? Does "O té " mean "about it" in the same way "o ní " means "about it" If not then why?

  5. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Maybe you have not reached this section in your workbook yet...

    There are many different words to express IT in czech, according to its
    gender and role(case) in the sentence.(and that is often determined by which preposition it follows)

    As far as demonstrative pronouns.
    They do not generally follow a preposition without the item referred to.

    Mluvíme o té=We are talking about the
    Mluvíme o ni(f),něm(m and n)=we are taling about it.
    Mluvíme o té knize=about the book.
  6. Calvario

    Calvario Well-Known Member

    Scrimshaw. That was exactly my question. Does the item refered to have to be expressed after a demonstrative pronoun. If I am understanding you correctly. the answer is yes AFTER a preposition. Is this right? However if there is NO preposition used then is it correct to use the demonstrative pronoun without refering back to the item. Thanks for the clarity. I had seen quite a few references to "IT" using the demonstrative pronoun without the item/whatever being refered back to but I had not considered the role of the preposition. Now, then, is this a concrete rule or is there an exception? I appreciate the examples as they give a visual to the concept.

  7. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    I think when you are seeing ten, ta, or to stand alone they are meaning this or that, not the.

    Ten je muž, co jsme viděli.

    Která kniha jsi četla? Tahle.

    This is just the way I understand things. Can not swear to their accuracy.
  8. Calvario

    Calvario Well-Known Member

    Scrimshaw I have a question about your last post.

    1 Ten je muž, co jsme viděli.

    This is a man, what we saw.

    This is a man which we saw.

    Co= pronoun what/which.

    2 Ten je muž, koho jsme viděli.

    This is a man whom we saw.

    3 Ten je muž, kterého jsme viděli.

    This is a man that/which we saw.

    4 Co je tenhle muž, kterého jsme viděli.

    This is the (very) man that we saw.

    What do you think about these sentences?

    I' d love feedback on why these sentences are right or wrong. Curious to know if these are right on or way off.

  9. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Calvrio...please do not always trust what I say. I am just learning too.

    Laat post=for example.
    I wrote
    Ten je muž, co jsme viděli. Gramatřically incorrect, slangish.
    který=which is proper

    you second example
    koho..not sure if that can be used that way
    I have seen it as a question word
    Koho vidíš?=who do you see?
    and as a compouund
    Vidím někoho.=somebody
    but not in the sense of which, joining clauses
    Ten je muž, který jsme viděli.

    third example
    kterého is genitive
    hard to use in such a sense

    co can not be used to mean ´´that´´. Especially as the subject.
    you wrote
    What is this man,(wrong choice of which) we saw yesterday.
    to(vague) a ten(specific)
    To je muž´.=that is a,the man.
    Ten(that particular one) je muž, který........
  10. Wicker808

    Wicker808 Well-Known Member

    Demonstrative pronouns (ta, ten, to, not followed by a substantive) can be translated as "that one," "this one," "those ones," "these ones," or "it." Personal pronouns can be translated as "he," "she," "they," or "it."

    Czech differs from English by clearly distinguishing personal from demonstrative pronouns. In English, "it" in particular can be either demonstrative or personal. So, when translating "it," it may not be clear whether to use personal pronouns or demonstrative pronouns. Personal pronouns are used when the antecedent has already been mentioned or indicated; demonstrative pronouns are used when the antecedent is being demonstrated (e.g., by pointing at it), rather than having been mentioned. Also, the demonstrative pronoun "to" is used when the antecedent is not a substantive, or otherwise not explicit, for example a clause. Finally, demonstrative pronouns are used as a dummy pronoun for introducing restrictive clauses.

    Contrasting demonstrative versus personal pronouns:
    Líbí se ti tyhle kalhoty? Škoda, že jsem si je koupil já.
    Do you like these pants? Too bad that I'm the one who bought them. (sarcastic gloating)

    Líbí se ti tyhle kalhoty? Škoda, že jsem ti koupil ty druhé.
    Do you like these pants? Too bad that I bought you those other ones. (expression of regret)

    Example of neuter demonstrative pronoun with non-explicit antecedent.
    Lenka mi dala kopačky. To mi hodně ublížilo.
    Lenka dumped me. It hurt me a lot.
    The subject of the second sentence is presumably the clause "that she dumped me," which is represented by the neuter demonstrative "to," since it is not a substantive.

    Example of demonstrative to introduce restrictive clause:
    Nechápu, co říkáš.
    Nechápu to, co říkáš.
    I don't understand what you are saying.

    Another example of demonstrative to introduce restrictive clause:
    Neznám toho, co s tebou mluvil.
    I don't know the guy who was talking with you.

    To není to, co jsem řekla.
    That's not what I said.
    The first "to" is a demonstrative, translated as "that." The second to is a dummy, introducing the restrictive clause.

    Jan vykradl banku. Včera jsem to viděl.
    Jan robbed a bank. I saw it (the robbery) yesterday.

    Jan vykradl banku. Včera jsem ho viděl.
    Jan robbed a bank. I saw him (Jan) yesterday.

    Jan vykradl banku. Včera jsem ji viděl.
    Jan robbed a bank. I saw it (the bank) yesterday.

    We aren't talking about anything.

    (colloquial) We're talking about nothing.

    Have you heard about that one? (Or, more likely) Have you heard about that girl?

    That guy is a man that we saw. (I don't like this sentence.)

    Contrast that with:

    That is the man that we saw. (This sentence is better.)

    In the preceding three examples, "co" can be replaced with "kterého," but not with "koho." Using an indefinite personal pronoun such as "kdo" and its forms usually requires that it be preceded by a dummy demonstrative, as mentioned above, not a substantive. In this Czech differs from English.

    (This sentence is wrong, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say.)

    What book were you reading? This one.
  11. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Wicker, that is great.
    Lots of stuff I did not know.

    Co, can be used to introduce a clause. I thought it was only slang.

    Nenávidím, když ženy mi dali kopačky.

    o té.
    So it can be used on it's own to refer to something previously mentioned, even after pronouns..

    Listen to Wicker Calvario.
  12. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Calvario, the problem is, that things in English are neuter. I translated o ní as about it since book is neuter. The literal translation of o ní is about her.

    Maybe, a imaginary replacing of things with persons (of "it" with "she" or "he") could help you.

    And don't overuse demonstrative pronouns. In English it's also much more usual to say about her (personal pronoun) than about that one (demonstrative pronoun), isn't?

    Yes, in colloquial Czech it is often used as substitute for nemluvíme o ničem.
    In fact, it means We're talking/speaking about nothingness (about the term "nothing").
  13. Calvario

    Calvario Well-Known Member

    On number 4 I put Co in error. The whole idea behind what I wrote was to understand what Scrimshaw meant when he wrote.

    Ten je muž, co jsme višděli.

    I didn't understand the use of CO. I had only seen it used as "what" up to this point. I figured co would be replaced by a form of který somehow and it appears that I was correct.

    Saying "To je tenhle muž, kterého jsme viděli." Is what sounded best to me.

    It seems though that you can use "CO" to mean "which" so writting

    To je ten muž, co jsme viděli. Is the equivilant of the above sentence minus the =hle ending of course.

    I just threw the koho out there to see what would come up.

    Thanks guys for the help.

    Lastly what is the actual difference in the above statment between "CO" and "kterého.


    To je muž
  14. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Good observation. Co is typically used to introduced subject clause or accusative object clause.
    Rather vice versa - který could be replaced by co.

    muž, kterého jsme viděli ... Standard way.
    muž, co jsme viděli ... Colloquial substitute for preceding; I consider it non standard.
    muž, co jsme ho viděli ... This is different type of clause, but the meaning is identical with preceding. This is standard.

    "To je tenhle muž" sounds odd to me. I prefer "To je ten muž".
  15. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Actually in this sentence, it's the accusative masculine animate (I saw whom), although the masculine genitive form is the same.
  16. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Thanks, I see the point about kterého.

    To je pan, kterého.....
    To je hrad, které...
    To je žena, která
    To je auto, které

    Dal jsem ji mu, které stojí za pultem.
    Pes, kterého se stěká každé noc, hraje na dvoře.
    Vidím ženu, kterou má klíč.

    S kym chceš mluvit? Chci mluvit s tim, které ukrádl moje kolo.
  17. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    I assume "I gave (to her) that one (masculine object), which ..."
    The object costs = nominative case masculine

    The dog is the one who is barking = nominative case masculine

    The woman has the key = nominative feminine
  18. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Sova, you are right
    I need to learn grammar, even english grammar. :D

    Dal jsem jí ho....dám mu ji...Dávám jim je

    Pes, který(still the subject) se stěká

    Vidím ženu, která (now the subject) hledá pes.
  19. Calvario

    Calvario Well-Known Member

    Wow! I didn't expect so much traffic on this thread, this is very cool.

    Scenario: Two people are talking. One mentions to the other something that has happened and the other person replies with the following:

    "I already know about that"

    O tom už vím
    Vím už o tom.
    Už vím o tom.

    "That" refers to a situation not a specific person,place, or thing. More conceptional.

    Something came up about using demonstrative pronouns after prepositions. I just want to be clear if the way I used one here is correct or not.

  20. alenastef

    alenastef Well-Known Member

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