CZ -> Translation Help Please :-)

Discussion in 'Vocabulary & Translation Help' started by brentulko, Jun 22, 2007.

  1. brentulko

    brentulko Member

    Can anyone translate this short sentence please.

    kde ses to naučil?

    I think something like "where did you learn?", but I don't know for sure.

    Many thanks in advance.
  2. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    "Where did you learn it from?"
  3. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Note that "seš" is used in some places in Moravia in place of "jsi."
  4. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    Just do not mix up ses and seš.
    Ses comes from jsi se (in reflexive verbs): kde jsi se to naučil (colloquial Czech). Kde ses to naučil is correct Czech.
    Seš or jseš is colloquial form of jsi, not jsi se.
  5. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Of course :oops: you're right--there's a reflexive in there. But still, is this really "correct" Czech or is it merely an accepted colloquialism?
  6. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    Sova, I think you are missing the haček. I think Jana is saying that ses (without haček) is with the reflexive which is correct czech and seš (with haček) is the colloquialism.
  7. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    In standard Czech you can use the form “jsi” or the contraction with “-s”. Along with a reflexive, the contraction with the reflexive is obligatory.

    The form “(j)seš” is colloquial. It is never used as an auxiliary. And it is used in Bohemia as well. The form tends to become a part of the standard Czech.
  8. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Obligatory?? Really?? I never learned that. Hmm .... So do you contract with "jsem" and "jste" also, e.g. "Kde smes/stes to naučili" (wow, that really sounds weird to my ear!), and if not, why?

    Hmmm... I don't recall hearing it commonly in Bohemia, at least not in the places I lived (Praha, Mladá Boleslav, Jihlava). And now that you mention it, I do recall someone telling me once upon a time that it isn't used as an auxiliary.
  9. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    The rule applies to the second person of the singular only - ty ses učil x vy jste se učili, ty ses díval x vy jste se dívali etc..
  10. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    No, the contraction exists only in the second person singular form and it’s a contraction of the verb “jsi” (not of the reflexive). The form “jsi” is simply replaced with a “-s” added to the end of an another word, most frequently of the first word in the clause. Of course, it doesn’t work with the words hardly extendable with the “-s” (like words ending in “s”). The contraction also often forces a change in word order.

    Only in the case there’s an auxiliary “jsi” and a reflexive “si/se” in one clause, it is obligatory to contract it into “sis/ses” which occupies usually the second place in the clause.

    Kde jsi se to naučil? (only colloquial form)Kde ses to naučil? (the only standard form)

    Otherwise, the contraction is arbitrary.

    For the auxiliary “jsi”, the contraction is quite frequent with the personal pronoun “ty”, with interrogatives (kam, kde, kdy, kolik…) and with some conjunctions.

    Ty jsi tam byl? Tys tam byl?
    Kde jsi byl?Kdes byl?
    Kam jsi šel?Kams šel?
    Vím, že jsi to byl ty.Vím, žes to byl ty.

    Although both variants are standard, a lot of Czechs think the full form is more literal and prefer it in the formal Czech.

    Another common contraction is the contaction of auxiliary “jsi” with the non-auxiliary part of the verb.

    byl jsibyls
    myslel jsi myslels
    myslela jsimyslelas

    The contractions with other words is less frequent, but still standard.

    Včera jsi tu byl?Včeras tu byl?
    cesta, kterou jsi přišelcesta, kterous přišel

    The contraction of the non-auxiliary is rare. It is considered very literal and poetic.

    Ty jsi tu?Tys tu?
    jsi podobna úplňkupodobnas úplňku
  11. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Jana and wer for the clarification. I had heard most of these other contracted forms, wer, and had previously understood that they were not standard forms but colloquialisms, which was a misunderstanding on my part, probably arising from the fact that, as you noted, many Czechs prefer the full form, considering them as more literary/proper. I must have also unwittingly applied the same logic to the "jsi se" -> "ses" contraction. Thanks again for the clarification.
  12. Alexx

    Alexx Well-Known Member

    I guess "ses" is the only one correct, at least better.

    I would use "Šel ses projít?" instead of "Šel jsi se projít?".
  13. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Yes, I realize that now, thanks. But apparently I didn't get that point even after almost two years in the Czech Republic. In hindsight, I probably should have spent more time with a grammar book, rather than relying solely on ear.

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