Little help?

Discussion in 'General Language' started by scrimshaw, Oct 10, 2005.

  1. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Ahoj vsechno
    Je neco, ze nerozumim, bohuzel. Tak se to tuhle milou skupinu zeptam.

    Here's my question about the future tense.
    Some verbs use helping verb budu,budes.....budou...to indicate future, others use present tense of perfective. I understand about the future form
    of byt agreeing with the subject, that is not the question.
    Is there a system, a pattern to this I am missing? Is there a relationship or similarity in the meaning of the verbs which could help me figure out which verbs have aspectual pairs and which do not? Probably a pretty complicated question.
    Which kinds of verbs only use the future tense of byt to help form the future, and which kinds instead use the present tense of perfective.
    Maybe there is no pattern.
    Vam dekuju predem.
     
  2. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    There are several patterns but I don't know them systematically. One of the most common and frequent pattern is:

    kopnout - kopat
    plivnout - plivat
    píchnout - píchat
    etc.

    In such pairs the first verb (-nout) is usually perfective, the second one (-at) is imperfective.

    N.B. Not all verbs ending in -nout are perfective, e.g. táhnout, tisknout are imperfective.

    The answer is quite simple:

    the imperfective verbs have the periphrastic future budu + inf.
    the perfective verbs use the present tense form for expressing the future

    The question would have to be:

    How can I recognize the verb aspect (i.e. perfective vs. imperfective)?

    Answer: in most cases from the meaning only, you cannot formally create the future tense from an infinitive (like in Latin or Spanish) without the knowledge of meaning

    An example:

    chytit (= to catch) - the relevant action is durationless (one-shot), so the verb is perfective, the future tense chytím (the present tense form), the past tense chytil jsem, the present tense has no sense regarding the fact that the action is durationless (ideally)

    vařit (= to cook) - the verb is durative, so the present tense is vařím, the furure is periphrastic budu vařit, the past vařil jsem

    N.B. Both verbs chytit and vařit are of the same verbal class with the same thematic vowel -i- (chyt-i-t, vař-i-t), their aspects are different.
     
  3. Wicker808

    Wicker808 Well-Known Member

    Na tvoji otázku ohledně vidu českých sloves jsem odpověděl tady.


     
  4. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that great information.
    With the cech language you are really able to say exactly what you want. I don't know if I could ever master all the subtleties, all the small differences in meanings.

    Sorry, but some things are still a little vague.
    Take the verb mluvit---no aspectual pair
    The only way to give that verb future meaning is to use the helping verb
    budu,budes...........right?
    mluvim-I speak
    mluvil jsem-I spoke
    budu mluvit-I will speak
    mluvil bych-I would speak

    I know I must sound a little dense here, but why is there no aspectual pair? Some verbs do not use that aspectual pair.
    So if I can take your example chytit---I can see that point of view
    Catching something, that's not really an ongoing action. You've either caught the ball or haven't caught it yet. A one time act.

    On the other hand mluvim-I am speaking-makes perfectly good sense in the present. Yet there is no aspectual pair. There are many several verbs like this.
    I am curious. If I could grasp the answers to these questions, it would help I think.
     
  5. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    I am affraid you have misconceived the verbal aspect.

    Every Czech (Slavic) verb is either imperfective or perfective:

    1. the imperfective verbs are in the first place the so-called durative verbs e.g. vařit (= to cook), mluvit (= to speak), jíst (= to eat), pracovat (= to work)

    these verbs have all three tenses: mluvím (I speak or I am speaking), mluvil jsem (I spoke, I was speaking), budu mluvit (I shall speak, I shall be speaking)

    2. the perfective verbs denote an action which is durationless, the present tense has no sense, e.g. chytit (= to catch), hodit (= to throw), udeřit (= to hit)

    no present: ---
    past: chytil jsem (I have caught)
    future: chytím (I shall have caught)

    There is another verb chytat, which is an imperfective counterpart of chytit and denotes a repeated action of catching. The verb chytat is iterative.

    present: chytám
    past: chytal jsem
    future: budu chytat

    Now we have the complete aspectual pair: chytit (perf.) - chytat (imperf.)

    present: chytám (I catch, I am catching)
    past: chytil jsem (I have caught), chytal jsem (I was catching)
    future: chytím (I shall have caught), budu chytat (I shall be catching)

    As you can see you must know both verbs of an aspectual pair (e.g. chytit and chytat) in most cases.

    Or you can treat it as one verb (chytit/chytat = to catch) with two infinitives and five tenses (once Qcumber suggested it).

    to catch:

    imperfective infinitive: chytat
    perfective infinitive: chytit

    present: chytám
    preterite: chytal jsem
    perfect: chytil jsem
    future: budu chytat
    perfect future: chytím
     
  6. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    The durative verbs:

    The durative imperfective verbs (mluvit, vařit, ...) usually form their perfective counterparts by means of verbal prefixes (usually with some shift of meaning).

    imperf. - perf.
    mluvit - promluvit
    vařit - uvařit, navařit
    jíst - sníst, vyjíst, dojíst, ujíst
    ...

    The aspectual pair vařit-uvařit:

    present: vařím (I cook, I am cooking)
    past: vařil jsem (I cooked, I was cooking), uvařil jsem (I have cooked)
    future: budu vařit (I shall cook, I shall be cooking), uvařím (I shall have cooked)
     

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