pronunciation clarification

Discussion in 'Grammar & Pronunciation' started by Calvario, Oct 18, 2006.

  1. Calvario

    Calvario Well-Known Member

    Co delas vera v knihovne. What is vera doing in the library.

    My question is is the V pronounced as an F due to the voiced unvoiced factor? Also, why is it that v is not changed to ve being that there is a cluster of 3 consonants. Is this just applied in some occasions?

    Are the v and the word knihovne pronounced as one word or is there a glottal stop in between? I think it's as one from what I have read but I would like to be sure.

    Thank you,
  2. Missbarbecue

    Missbarbecue Member

    Yes, that would be pronounced as one word "fknihovně", there's no glottal stop; that occurs only if the next word starts with a vowel - e.g. v okně is pronounced f-okně (with a glottal stop).

    As for the change v-ve, s-se, k-ke... I'm not sure if there's a general rule, it just happens with some consonant clusters. However, it always happens, if the consonant would be doubled - ke kostelu, ve vaně and so on.
  3. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Minor correction: Co dělá Věra v knihovně?
  4. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    That is a good question.
    I would like to know these rules too.
    When the preposition is simply v, the pronunciation is always like an F?
    But when the preposition is ve, the pronunciation then has the V sound?
    Věra sedí v knihovně, která je ve velkou budově u řeky.
    In your example, if you were actually addressing Věra, use the vocative case, Věro.
  5. Missbarbecue

    Missbarbecue Member

    Actually, v is only pronounced [f] when it's followed by an unvoiced consonant (including glottal stop).
    Therefore - v knihovně = [fknikovně] but v budově = [vbudově]

    ve is always pronounced [ve]

    Věra sedí v knihovně, která je ve velké budově u řeky.
  6. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that Missbarbeque.
    That clarifies that very well.
    I was never really sure about it.
  7. phi11ip

    phi11ip Well-Known Member

    Another rule I discovered recently is v, k and s become ve, ke and se before their voiced/unvoiced pairs. E.g.
    ve filmu
    se Zazanou
    ke garáži
  8. doman

    doman Well-Known Member

    In my opinion, (I guess :D) it just be for easier pronounce. Of course they have some rules but I forgot. For example : to pronounce Ve filmu is easier than V(o) f(o)ilmu.
  9. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Yes, it functions exactly like that. Sometimes it is not only before their un/voiced counterpart/equivalent but before a larger consonantic group as well.

    You may have "fakt k tkadleně" (really to the weaver) as well as "fakt ke tkadleně"

    You may have "k svým přátelům" (to one's own friends - pronounced in on syllable) and "ke svým přátelům" (two different syllables, much easier to pronounce).
  10. JirkaS

    JirkaS New Member

    I and some other Moravians do not say f-okně but vokně
  11. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Yeah, but Moravian sucks... er... joke, ehm.

    There is also third variant with little aspiration, so it is something similar to [vhokně] (as the aspiration is easier to pronounce). Czech colloquial variant is "ve vokně" (protetic V) but it is strongly discouraged by the codification.
  12. Ájík

    Ájík Well-Known Member

    :D Are You dummy???? :D :twisted:

    The bigest defilers of Czech language living in the Prague!!! :twisted:

    for example: "výkon" - "vejkon" - pah, I'm gonna puke from some "Prague" words. I had met some Pragues in Croatia and when I heard them speaking I didn't know what I supposed to think. Such a horrible Czech I didn't hear before.

    So what's up :?: :?: :?: :?: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
  13. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Nothing, just a pragocentric joke :twisted:
    But still the more sensitive people in Bohemie do not consider the Moravian variants like "k oknu" - [koknu], "v okně" - [vokňe] or "jsme" - [zme] very euphonic either.
  14. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Pragocentric? That’s a weak word for you. :twisted:

    Prague being the centre of the civilised universe :shock:? Pshaw :roll:, absolute nonsense :D. Prague is the most eccentric town I know :twisted: :twisted:.
  15. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    I love this Czech-Moravian rivalry! Classic!
  16. Ájík

    Ájík Well-Known Member

    And You never heard my grandma: "Tož, co tady zglíňáš", "myslela sem, že je po mňa- smrť na mňa šáhla" .... .
    She's from valašsko - south Moravia.
    When You more sensitive persons listen to my grandma speaking You would get a stroke. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
  17. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Ajik=Myslím si, že jsem schopen přeložit babicčiny slova.

    "Tož, co tady zglíňáš", "myslela sem, že je po mňa- smrť na mňa šáhla" .... So, what are you (probably, doing here). I thought that it is for me like death grabbed hold of me.(she was surprised to see you)

    How did I do?
  18. Ájík

    Ájík Well-Known Member

    Almost right. So now You can talking with my grandma :D :D :D
  19. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Vím, že děláš vtip, ale v tvech slovách, myslím, že je asi trošku pravdu.

    To a foreigners ears that way of speaking does not sound really different,
    because our ears are not trained to, and accustomed to, the standard čech language anyway.

    Mimochodem, zglinat ve slovníku není.

    Like has been said earlier on this forum, it woluld take years probably to recognize regional accents.
  20. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    I have nothing against your grandmother as she speaks a dialect. But In terms of defiling the standard language I think the Moravians and Czechs do not have anything to complain about each other. I admit that the Czech vocalic openness and protetic V may sound horribly but so does Moravian closedness (Moravian vowels are relatively equally different from standard pronunciation as the Czech ones but precisely from the other side of Hellwag's triangle). The problem with assimilation before unique vowels (vowels without unvoiced counterpart) like M is that in Bohemia, it is a sociophonetic trait of low education. People who pronounce "demokracie" as [] or "frekvence" as [fre.gven.tse] are generally considered as ineducated and Moravian "jsme" [zme] is exactly the case. And recently it is used more and more by politicians about whom one can never know whether it is due to their low education or their Moravian origin... or both.

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