(I'm going to rant a bit in defense of myself on this one... I can't stand this slight bigotry.) I'm agnostic (a form of Atheism as you might know) and I beg to ask, "what am I ignorant of?" I have read the Qur'an several times to learn of the Muslim faith. I have read the Bible and skimmed it countless times. I have read The Book of Mormon. I have many Asian friends who were raised Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, and Animist, and have quite a second hand knowledge of each. I'm a historian and know of the ancient religions of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, and Egyptions. "What am I ignorant of?" In my "opinion," there is a god. Everyone trying to say exactly how it looks and how it acts is the wrong path however. We cannot know what god is, because we cannot use our senses to find this ultimate truth. We simply don't know our ultimate purpose on the Earth and must create our own morality and self-concept. "Picking" an image of god is side-stepping logic and reason, and limits the application of our intelligence. Christians, Muslims, and Sikhs are all taught their religion as the truth, or choose their religion for cultural reasons. A Christian would not convert to Cannibalisms because it is against the Christian's basic raised culture, however that Christian might convert from Anglican to Baptist because one fits that Christian's world view better over the other. (All in my opinion of course.) The Agnostic vs. the God fearing man on abortion: God fearing man's Method: "I will refer to my Bible, and if I find not the answer, I will ask my priest." God fearing man's Conclussion: "Every person has a soul, and God intended for a child to be born by the fact that conception occured and thus a soul placed. I am a protestant I must announce, and I did not have to ask my priest for such knowledge. The Bible says "Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)" Obviously, if God has hand in making us in the womb, it is by His intent that we are given life. If that life is taken away by another, it trully is murder." Conversely: The Agnostic's Method: "I will use my reasonable and logical methods, with the fact that a god, or many gods, may exist, to find my answer." The Agnostic's Conclussion: "We cannot know rightfully when the soul enters the human body, or even if the "soul," as in a consciousness, exists in others. Considering the "I think, therefore I am" (Descartes) concept being a self-centered model not recognizing those around you, it greatly limits considering souls in others. Yet, for this topic to be considered, we must assume that the soul exists in others or else abortion as a moral question is irrelevent. So, let us begin. A soul may be put in at conception, or it may not be. These are the only two modes for the question. Well, what would prove a soul being at conception? Brain activity, movement, and expression of consciousness might prove it, yet there is nothing but cells in the early developments. Even then, is biology the only house for the spirit and consciousness? Any afterlife theory surely promotes the idea of the consciousness seperate from the mortal body. If the soul is seperate from the body, it might enter at any time! Well, this all adds up. It adds up to nothing. Considering that god is the true arbitrater of souls, could god not just give us our souls at birth directly? How would we know? Aw, but there is the crux again. "How would we know?" Simply put, "we can't." Is the consciousness that youthful day between 2 and 4 that we all finally have our first memories, or is it the "twinkle in thine eye" when mother first swoons over the father??? We are unable to know. Either of the two modes on the subject leads to dead ends. So what now? Well, one can choose to accept the conception as the creation of another being, or one can choose to not accept it. That is the simple mater-of-fact truth. It must come down to one's personal choice based on one's own life concept. As for me, I believe... (and then every Agnostic rationalizes their opinion differently.)" Personally, I choose to believe that a child developes a consciousness at around 2 years old, and before that their "id" is not developed. This explains why no one remembers birth or their first birthday for instance. So for me, and for many other reasons which I can speak on for hours, abortion is not an absolute "right," but acceptable. Furthermore, can a state reasonably keep women from abortions that they would carry out themselves anyway? Can a state make abortions for rape/medical cases legal and economic/social cases illegal? Courts could not handle the load, and I promise that before most rape or medical cases come to court, birth or miscarriage will have occured. Abortion cannot be regulated is thus relegated to simply a moral question. If one believes God does not want abortions, then abortions are wrong. If one does not believe in a god, then abortions are a life choice. Now, why did I ramble? I rambled because I use logic and reason to govern my life. Or at least I try. I do not depend on creating a god that suits me. I assume that god maybe good, or evil, but I might never know the truth. So why dwell? Well, these are pressing matters of the now that interest me. And what is life but one passing interest to the next? It is curiousity that makes us rise to the next morning, and thus why the broken hearted or bleak end up wilting away physically as well as mentally. We are undividely attatched to furthering our intellect and ego. I do not suddenly pray to a god I do not know. Should I suddenly break down and cry to your God, or to one of the many god's of Greece? Please clarify? Furthermore, I am not ignorant. Please do not accuse me of such. Paradoxially, I cannot be ignorant of something that does not exist. If it does exist, I only know it as much as you do, and that means only understanding that fact that a god does exist, and nothing more, of which ignorance is only the question of recognizing god's existence. Yet, there is no empirical proof either of us can present to either side. Hence, no answer. Hence, no ignorance of god to either of us, and no knowledge either. "A" No "Gnostic" Knowledge "The only thing I know is that I know nothing." Keep your head in the book CU. You'll get it.
natureboy, Did you grow up in an middle class or wealthy family? I'll tell you this much, of the families of Senators and Representatives, only ONE of them (out of 535 or 635, I can't remember off the top of my head) has a son or daughter serving actively in the military. Did you see John Kerry's comments this week that he had to apologize for? If you are poor, you simply have very few options. Scholarships and financial aid are more and more difficult to obtain. The military simply is the best option for many of my students. The average ACT score in my high school is around 15. The high school I attended (in Iowa) it was 30. What does that tell you? What other alternatives do these kids have besides selling drugs or working in fast food and retail and not even being able to leave home? Do you really think they want to fight, die, be called baby killers and rapists and be exposed to all the hate that many are promulgating? If you were in their situation, it wouldn't be such an easy decision. For those who can travel to Prague, have a passport, access to credit...it's simple. Many of my students have never even left the Kansas City area. To them, the military will be their only chance to see the world.
I enjoyed your post because I find it interesting to see how nonChristians think about things. However, given the above statement, does that mean the government should not intervene in any murder of a child under age 2. I mean if consciousness doesn't exists until age 2 therefore the government should not choose if abortion is legal, shouldn't then the government also be denied the choice of making murder under age 2 illegal?
Eso, I was simply quoting BMoody who was simply stating his personal belief. The source or reason he believes that was briefly touched on in his post: However, he may have more reasons to believe such.
Around 2 is just a theory of mine. I myself remember the first day of consciousness. It is wierd I must admit. But it is true: I was just passed my 2nd birthday and my family was still unpacking in our newly rented German house. I woke up and looked around my bare room. "Where am I?" "What's noise is outside?" "What words am I using..." I walked out the door slowly and crept downstairs to see my brother run across the dining room into the kitchen. But I didn't remember him as my brother. He was familiar, but I did not know his name. "Chris, go wake up Bryan again." My brother ran out looked at me, and ran back into the kitchen "He is up already!" I thought, "that is Chris and I must be Bryan." I walked down the steps and into the kitchen. My brother jumped up and down at my mother's heels and said "mom mom mom, I want pancakes!!" I then thought, "this is 'mom'." **** As you can see, I have an experience few remember, and it is something I can only place as being the moment of my first independant thoughts. Either I woke up with amnesia, or I truly was in my first moments. Because of this, I think that perhaps we all gain consciousness at around that time, but most forget it. **** In regards to abortion and if 2 is the true date... I cannot take a stance there. I have my leaning, but I cannot say my theory is the truth. Also, just because consciousness might enter at 2, it doesn't mean the spirit isn't there by conception. As you can see... it is quite a quandry. I did not mean to say that the consciousness coming later is grounds for abortion. Rereading, it appears that I wrote it that way though. OOOPS! I wanted a new train of thought and I was tired. I meant that there were many other reasons why I support legal abortion that I did not want to list. They are more functional opinions in regard to society. I hope that helps. I'm really glad someone was interested in reading that bohemoth!!!
Was it the 1st day of your consciousness or was it the 1st day of consciousness that you remember??:idea:
I think it was the first day of consciousness because I distinctly remember having to figure out who my family was. I remember learning who they all were, and even remember learning my own name. Yet, the whole time, I could talk and walk. I had already learned these things and my mother points out now that I knew everyone before we moved to Germany. Yet, I had to learn it all again on that day I first remember. I remember thinking, on that day, "I must not forget. I cannot forget. This is my first time waking up!!!" I fell asleep saying that to myself... that is why I can remember it now so vividly... I told myself never to forget it because it was important somehow. Yes, maybe I had just forgotten my earlier years... however, to forget everything but how to talk and walk before waking up is a strange enough thought in itself. It is a possibility though. A knock to the head or unfelt illness perhaps?
Perhaps the move was so traumatic for you that it threw you into consciousness, or self-awareness or earliest memory, (whatever people believe it was.) My earliest memory was when I found out there really is a God. It was around age 3. We lived in an apartment building and I really hated the little boy that lived in the apartment next to us. However, he liked me and came over to play often. I remember telling my mom I hated him and my mom saying "We can't hate people, Jesus doesn't like that." I remember thinking "But it's not my fault that I hate him, it's his!" Then I prayed and asked God to "make me love him". (of course I would use different wording as an adult because God doesn't make you do anything, but that's a whole seperate topic.) I distinctly remember him coming to the apartment to play. I remember answering the door and an overwhelming feeling coming over me that I wanted to hug him. Of course I didn't hug him. But I remember the feeling so distinctly and I remember having the shocking thought; "Wow, God is real and He really did what I asked Him to do." Now some may choose to believe that I willed myself into liking him. However, I know it wasn't me. I knew then and I know now that God put his love for that child in my heart because I gave Him the permission to do so. Well That's my cute memory. Perhaps we are getting off topic and these posts should be moved to a new topic so others can join and share their experiences.
Nice story. One thing catched my eye. You wrote "Of course I didn't hug him." Is a hug of small children considered as inappropriate in USA?
No it is not inappropriate. But as a memory for me it was that I wanted to hug him and I was so shocked that I wanted to hug him (because I had hated him so) that I held back and did not hug him. Had I hugged him, no one would have thought anything of it. Except maybe he would have thought, "what got into her, I thought she hated me" or maybe he didn't know I hated him and he would have liked the hug. Who knows. :wink: Well that was a typical female answer to your question (long-winded). So, no it is not inappropriate for little kids to hug. In fact they do it all the time. :lol:
Eso, make sure to say "caught my eye." I can't imagine how many people will be making fun of Russians after this new Borat movie comes out. When I start learning Czech, I would be more than happy to have you correct me, likewise.
Thank you for correction. I have to work on my irregular verbs. But he presents as Kazakh, isn't he? Anyway I really look forward to that movie.
The funniest thing is that he is Jewish, so he can get away with making fun of Jews. The Kazakhs think he is ruining the reputation of their country (they've spent $4 million in ads in American newspapers countering the movie and promoting tourism), but they will probably end up benefitting, as the real targets of his movie are the ignorance, prejudice and gullibility of many different Americans he encounters as he films his way across the US. That's the genius of the film...that he's really making fun of the US, while making many THINK he's making fun of Kazahkstan. By the way, most of the Kazahk scenes were actually filmed in Romania.
I've seen the trailer. I think most people will know that he is making fun of Americans but they will still find it funny. I also think it will, at the same time, make fun of Kazakhs. I think the movie exaggerates common conceptions and prejudices about both countries for humor. An example would be when he romantically kisses his sister and then says she is the 4th best prostitute in the country, and then she holds up a trophy. It should be pretty funny and I'm looking forward to seeing it, although I'm sure some things will gross me out. :?
While this is so off topic I think once the movie has been in theatres around the world there should be a seperate topic about it, after many of the posters have had a chance to see it. Actually even if Americans do start making fun of Kazakhstanis I think it will give them a new culture to talk about and maybe even try to learn about Kazkhstan. I did not know this was a real country when I first saw Da Ali G Show. A friend and I were talking about the Borat character about 2 years ago. "Is he Arab?" "No, I think he's Greek?" "Russian, maybe?" "Turkish?" "Oh well, doesn't matter, he's funny nonetheless". That was our conclusion. In response to the original question about wether the young lady should move to the CR. As someone who has never been, but would like to, I think she should weigh out the pros and cons and I believe this is a good place to learn.
gypzy, thanks for bringing the discussion back on track. While this has been a very interesting thread, we would like to remind everyone to please try to keep discussions on topic. BoredintheUSA started this thread in order to get people's opinions on whether or not she should move to the Czech Republic. She and others who are interested in this topic don't necessarily want to read through two pages of posts about religion, Bush or Borat. Although I am looking forward to the Borat movie... We have an Off Topic forum where everyone is welcome to voice their opinions on subjects that are not related to the Czech Republic. If you would like to react to something that was said in a discussion and you know that your post will not be related to the original topic, please post in Off Topic. You're welcome to quote the post that inspired yours to give your readers some context. Thank you! Dana MyCZ
