Czech Gov't Policies for American Dummies

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by gypzy, Mar 25, 2008.

  1. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    ArkItek wrote....When will people realise Usa is a bigger threat to everyone than the Soviets ever were.

    Wow, that is some statement.
  2. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    Ok, I concede that I don’t have hard-core, beyond a shadow of doubt evidence that Obama is racist. However, given that he was a member for 20 years, membership meaning that he confessed a belief and an adherence to their “Black Value System” and the “12 precepts and covenantal statements” and that he paid $22,500 to the church in the year 2006 alone gives quite a bit of evidence to draw the conclusion that he is racist. If I were a betting person, which I’m not, I’d bet all my chips that he is. Come on David, if you met a white person spouting such a value system against blacks and paying large sums of money to a group that adheres to such a value system, would you not bet that he were a racist?

    Believing that a community that has gone through slavery together doesn’t have the ability to be racist is pathetic and stupid. Of course they have the ability to be racists, they also have more motive. Try to use logic here.
  3. Ktot

    Ktot Well-Known Member

    Sorry, the forum was being odd, duplicate post.
  4. Ktot

    Ktot Well-Known Member

    I am not trying to make this political at all, and I'm certainly not trying to say anyone should vote for him, but I do feel the need to point out that I don't think that someone donating $22,500 to one's church is proof of racism. (Even if the reverend makes questionable comments, I'm pretty sure that money still went to helping people ( for 59 ministries they are involved in, only one of which seems arguable). Dzurisovo, I went to the website you linked, but coming from some random guy's blog called "smell the liberal", it wasn't the most reliable, so I went to Trinity United's website, which he linked. While some things there were not what I'd call PC, it wasn't as bad as it was made to sound; I could not find the “12 precepts and covenantal statements” that the blogger lists, and don't know why he didn't directly link it.)

    I am not at all saying that racism does not exist in the black community. It does. But to point the finger at anyone who wants to better the "black community" as racist, is also wrong. Perhaps a parallel example will work best: I am in a group at my school called "Women in Science" for women to get professional and educational experience and for the general advancement of women in that field. But I certainly don't hate men.

    A man who is of equally mixed race (people seem to forget that his mother was a white woman from Kansas) has perhaps the best perspective on race issues. All politics aside, this is an excellent evaluation of race relations in this country: Please watch especially minutes 20:30-25:00; such a depth of understanding. The way people talk about Obama reminds me off the way people talk about Tiger Woods, who has more Asian ancestry than he does African, and yet that's all people can focus on. "Oh! Black golfer!" they say anyway, just like "Oh, black presidential candidate, how historic." Race is a distraction from the real issues; just as equally among those who both do and do not support his bid for office.
  5. Ark1tec

    Ark1tec Well-Known Member

    The soviets obviously were wrong and should not have abused their size and power to attack anybody. That was the past and as such should be treated in context with what russia does today. What the usa does today is equally unacceptable. The use of an army to fight economic wars is as wrong today as it was during communism. When you think that people die because of religious or nationality then you begin to see how wrong those ideas really are. The point is no matter what Obamas political affiliations he is from African origins and as such belongs to a community that found it hard to succeed in a racist country. Sticking together as a group and encouraging each other to believe in the group identity works. It worked for previously persecuted groups and works for the advancement of the american african community. Obama, can see that, I can see that, why don't you.
  6. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    Russian ambitions didn't change much. War in Chechnia, for example.
    Attempts to control Georgia and Belarus. Energy policy to influence former satelites. Provocations in Lithuania and cyber attacks.

    I agree that Iraq war was wrong and stupid.

    I don't know about Obama. But during communism here, sticking together worked for persecuted groups. But, after fall of communist regime, these groups disintegrated, which is understandable - they were forced to cooperate by external force, but in normal conditions they were very different - some of them were, let's say "naive communists", some were believers in religion, other let's say main stream.

    It's somehow similar with disintegration of Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. Tensions were suppresed for decades, but then exploded all the more.
  7. Ark1tec

    Ark1tec Well-Known Member

    I was thinking of non conformist religious groups like quakers in the eighteenth century who were not allowed to go to university or work in government but excelled in business by working together to achieve certain goals.
    What is a "naive communist"?
  8. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    There are a lot of good points being made here, and the topic is kind of scattered throughout different posts, so I will just list my thought without looking up specific posts.

    Dzurisova wrote.... Come on David, if you met a white person spouting such a value system against blacks and paying large sums of money to a group that adheres to such a value system, would you not bet that he were a racist?

    Maybe you are right there. Maybe, I'm willing to give Obama some benefit of the doubt, that maybe I wouldn't be willing to give to a white conservative supporting an angry white church. That seems a bit of a double standard on my part. But the truth is, I really don't see him as racist. One of the gripes about him from some segments, is that he is not acting black enough. He is walking some kind of tight rope, needing to appeal to all quarters.

    Ktot..I will watch that utube video you mentioned, when I have time.
    Blackness, whiteness, are always the first issue, because that is what is seen, most apparent, even if it has little to do with how that person thinks politically. That is what we are striving for, a color blind society.

    Ark1tek...Here is an analogy that occured to me. In any animal group/society, the alpha male will always try to rise to dominance. The strongest, most ambitious, most ruthless, will exhert his will.
    This seems to be nature.
    So will the alpha male have ultimate unrestrained power, or will his power be checked by a freely voting people, that can restrain him, and force him from office?
    That is kind of how I see the difference of a Totalitarian authority and a Democratic government.
    The communist experiment led to the Totalitarian. Unchecked authority. All dissent stifled. Self preservation.
  9. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    Well, I think people who really believed in theoretic principes of communism (well, someone like you :) ), these who were very quickly shoved away by oportunists and carrierists, who took the reins.
  10. Ark1tec

    Ark1tec Well-Known Member

    I just knew you were going to say that I am a naive communist. That made me laugh, thankyou. I'm not though and to be honest apart from my family I have never known an out communist. Still Marx did not make the soviet empire and was not there to govern yours. Like Einstein refused to beprime minister of Israel I think Marx would have refused to govern any Socialist state though both would probably have made bettr jobs of it than anyone else. Thankyou again for making me laugh, naive communist I should be insulted.
    I still don't think any black man in america today can be accused o being racist no matter what they say.
    Think of Martin Luther King and how much segregation oppression and exploitation black people went through and still do before calling the Racist card.
  11. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    It was partialy joke, therefore smile :)

    Well, it's really strange opinion. I think that everyone has to be measured by same criterion.

    Slavery and segregation - yes. But me or my ancestors had nothing to do with it, so I believe I can talk about it freely, without some sense of guilt.

    For example in Zimbabwe it's reversed. White farmers are persecuted by black government - and of course much more that it's in present USA.
  12. Ark1tec

    Ark1tec Well-Known Member

    Yes farmers do get a bad deal pushed out by city slickers and replaced by new machinery. But don't forget they are well educated middle class people who have only lost property, meanwhile indigenous Zimbabweans are being beaten violently by an oppressive regime. But Mugabe is not a working class Zimbabwean and Obama is not a working class African/American that does make a difference. I am not religious and as Marx said, "religion is the opium of the people," people who are religious are living in a comfortable fantasy that exscuses all wrong doing by human beings. Mugabe is not exscusable and neither are his followers.
    The answer to the question is Obama racist, is no. Is the person on the website smell the liberal racist is more probably YES. Do many people care he is a racist, well like Obamas' church maybe his website should not be tolerated.
  13. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    Like I said, it’s not hard-core, beyond the shadow of doubt proof, yet it’s hard evidence. Would you give money to an organization that proclaimed such white separatist ideas even if they did “other good works”. Or would you find an organization that embraced equality and love for all and did those same great works. There are many churches out there he could have gave to that did wondrous great works. But he chose to give to that one.

    The 12 precepts were listed on Trinity’s “About Us” page on their official website until removed when Erik Rush exposed the church’s separatist (i.e. racists) values. However, since Obama and the pastor left the church, they are there again and can be found at “ That "Some guy’s” blog" is actually my husband, so I can speak for his reliability. :) :wink:

    I didn’t point the finger at ANYONE who wants to better the black community as a racist. I, myself, am a social worker in the heart of a black community. I work everyday to better this community. I call a racist ANYONE who seeks to better a community by separatist means rather than Dr. Kings means of integration; someone who continues to stir up hatred and animosity between the races rather than bring them together in a mutual peace and respect for each others similarities as well as differences. Given your example of women in science, I would hope you strive for equality and a peaceful working relationship together in science rather than separation.

    I do not forget that his mother is white. I don’t care what his race is, because it’s not his race I have a problem with, it’s the fact that for 20 years he was a member of a racist church. He confessed a belief and an adherence to their “Black Value System” and the “12 precepts and covenantal statements” and that he paid $22,500 to a racist organization in one year. If he were white, red, yellow, black or a mixture of all of them, I wouldn’t care. I don’t look at race, I look at what a candidate believes and adheres to. Had he joined the KKK due to his white background, I’d feel the same animosity toward his beliefs.
  14. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    Like I said before, take a look at Dr. King’s model of integration and equality which was much more effective.

    Your ignorant on this matter because you don’t even know the author of this website who happens to be my husband. He is FAR from a racist, he’s just not afraid to call out racism when he sees it. Like eso, his ancestors had nothing to do with slavery, but regardless if they had, he still wouldn’t be afraid or guilt ridden to proclaim racism for what it is.

    Oh, and unlike your suggestion, I believe Obama's church, racists as it is, should be tolerated along side because we live in a free country where freedom of speech is a core value.
  15. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    In fact, the very fact that he uses his blog to expose and oppose racism is logical evidence that he is not racist.
  16. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    No, it is not.

    And by the way, slavery and racism are two different things. Just for your information, most of the slaves in human history were white and most of the blacks were enslaved by blacks.

    Nobody here said something along this line.

    Yes, and within the Earth Globe there is another one, a bigger one. :roll:

    Thank God!!!

    I prefer communism over marxism. The communists who happen not to be true marxists tend to be pragmatic. And pragmatic criminals are less dangerous than the fanatical ones.

    Einstein, inspite of his numerous faults, was a wise man, not so Marx. (And Einstein refused the presidency.)

    Actually, "naive communist" is not insult, it is a regretful diagnosis.

    Either you are a silly person who thinks there are no racists at all, or you are racist yourself.

    Czech state was built up on slavery. Eleven cunturies ago, Prague was the biggest slave market in Europe, but we don't practise slavery since the era of Saint Adalbertus.

    On the other hand, the last Turkish raid for slaves in the Czech countries is from 1820. So, maybe, we can not be racists by Ark1tec's measures. :wink:

    Don't buy this line of reasoning, eso!!! :D
    Nobody is guilty of his ancestors. Addopting the false axioma of your opponent is the shortest way to screw up your own point.

    That is no evidence at all. :wink:
  17. Ark1tec

    Ark1tec Well-Known Member

    I'll take a closer look at the website. But please explain what "smell the liberal means" ?
  18. Ark1tec

    Ark1tec Well-Known Member

    Liberals in the UK are different to the democratic party in the USA. In the UK liberals are a centre party without much of the voteing percentage. Their views and policies are, give a bit to the right, give a bit to the left. The image of the USA democratic party in the UK is one of student Activism, soft left politics and seem to be more to the right than I would like them to be. Whereas your view is that they are communist.
    I took a closer look at the "smell the liberal" website and apart from the Obama church piece the rest seemed fairly moderate republican right wing views. I don't understand why religion is mixed with politics, I thought antidisestablishmentarianism brought an end to secular views being dominated by religious beliefs so as not to bring discrimination into politics.
    The problem with england today is that the Labour party follows American policy like a dog, particuarly as regards social policy.
    If liberals (USA) were really left wing socialists would the welfare system be so inadequate.
    And I'm out.
  19. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    ev•i•dence –noun
    1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
    2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.
    3. Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.

    His opposition to racism is grounds for belief, an indication or sign that he is a racist. :)
  20. dzurisova

    dzurisova Well-Known Member

    No, my husband’s view is that they are communist. I simply think most of them are kind-hearted, misguided, people, who like me, want to help the under-class. However, the misguided part is in expecting the government to be able to help the under-class which just gives the government too much control over our lives, removes individual freedoms, and causes the under-class to become dependent rather than self sufficient. Private help to the under-class is much more effective.

    This is a very broad question which would create a whole new discussion. If you’d like to have this discussion, it should be on a new post.

    The liberals in this country have created today’s welfare system. It is so inadequate because it’s controlled by the government in a socialistic approach. It promotes dependency. It encourages/rewards the poor to have more children they can not afford and discourages employment by removing benefits. Private agencies do a better job to help the poor by meeting immediate needs while at the same time promoting self-sufficiency and empowerment.

Share This Page