Euronews report on Prague's Art world

Discussion in 'Culture' started by Ctyri koruny, Oct 4, 2009.

  1. Ctyri koruny

    Ctyri koruny Well-Known Member

  2. kibicz

    kibicz Well-Known Member

    Reminded me this:

    Kde že ty loňské sněhy jsou...
  3. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Wow! If I read that right, that's a pretty severe pronouncement against the gypsies.
    That was enforced and there were killings? Sounds like a progrom.
    They tried to banish them completely from the kingdom?
  4. Ctyri koruny

    Ctyri koruny Well-Known Member

    Not so surprising, I think there have been more genocides committed against gypsies than any other race/ethnicity?

    And it still continues, there was a program about it on Czech 1 a few months ago, i think the thing that hit me most was the fact that, apart from not being able to get a job/kids getting bullied in school and leaving etc. etc. the people are living in fear every day in their own homes. Right now. Within a mile of where I'm sitting.

    There were some Gypsies attacked in Belfast recently, they were a family who had left the Czech Republic to avoid persecution, only to be petrol bombed in their own home. Where ever they go they're hated.

    Even when Gypsy CZ were in the eurovision, I heard a few people say "I don't know why they're representing us, they're not Czech." HOW are they not Czech!? They live here! Their parents lived here, and their parents and their parents and their parents, and they speak Czech!
    And also they look Czech. I have noticed since I've been living here that maybe they dress differently, but I think I'll need to be living here a lot longer before they look differently to me.

    But anyway the point of this thread was to talk about all the nice culture and art in Prague, not to get into a discussion which always ends with someone telling me "You don't understand, you're not Czech."

    (( I don't think that all Czech people are like this, it's just that this is what all racist Czech people say to me ))
  5. Ctyri koruny

    Ctyri koruny Well-Known Member

  6. Ctyri koruny

    Ctyri koruny Well-Known Member

  7. Anna683

    Anna683 Well-Known Member

    What I can't understand is why some supposedly educated people can be so prejudiced about gypsies and are so open and unashamed about expressing these views. There's no embarrassment and the prejudices are presented as fact. I recently met a Czech from Prague who claimed that gypsies (as opposed to "white" Czechs) deliberately lived in squalor, were incapable of doing well at school or of attending university, that the few gypsies who did have university degrees (e.g. prominent gypsies shown on TV) were stupid because they didn't have a proper command of Czech and that the majority of young gypsy women were prostitutes. Even an ignorant foreigner can tell that this must be a bit of an exaggeration. This isn't the first supposedly educated person I've heard expressing similar views, but it was the first university lecturer.
  8. Ctyri koruny

    Ctyri koruny Well-Known Member

    Yeah it's really what amazes me, there is a lot of racism at home, but it only effects the type of people I don't generally associate with; unintelligent, without basic human empathy etc.

    Here it seems to me racism against Gypsies is endemic in every walk of life, even sociologists who you would think would have some understanding of what causes the differences and distinctions between different peoples.

    It makes me feel that this lack of understanding is a basic trait of human kind, I know if I had been born here I would be wearing the same blinkers, be feeling the same way. Perfectly good, nice, intelligent people are poisoned by this.

    I think it is true that they don't do so well at school.
    Imagine no one in your family has ever been to college. Worse than that, imagine you have say, blue eyes, and you have never heard of anyone with blue eyes getting a good job and living a normal life, let alone going to college.
    You might still want to work hard in school and get on in life, but it will seem pretty impossible, you have no role models. Also there is nothing to tell you that this type of life is "good" because the people you see living it look the same as the people that shout things at you on the street or give you filthy or suspicious looks or put their hands into their pockets and cling onto their wallets when they see you.
    Now imagine you're a hard working good person, you go to school, and every day the children call you names and every day you hear in class about what a problem you blue-eyed people are. (I hear it every day in class, I wonder if it's different when there is a Gypsy present?)
    I think you'd need to be an incredibly strong person to get through a day like this.
    Prostitution is legal here and a lot of gypsy girls do do this.
    For some reason no one sees this as evidence that there must be something wrong here. They seem to imagine that the girls have somehow chosen this life for themselves.

    There are different social classes at home and if you live in a council estate you're generally accepted as being lower class. Some lower class people wear track suits. Most people are afraid of them. Some of them have been known to ask a person for their phone and then take it. Or stand on some bridge or narrow path and claim that to pass you need to pay a toll. Etc.
    These same two stories, which are classics, were told to me as evidence of how Gypsies are somehow not human.
    This happens everywhere! But the difference is the brothers of the boys at home wear suits and work in banks and no one associates them with their brothers. Here every Gypsy is judged by the actions of one or two, and the ones who complain of racism and mistreatment, I've been told, are "exaggerating" or "lying". As if actually their lives are easy and none of them are living in fear or suffering at all because of the colour of their skin/the way they dress/the way they talk/the music they make and listen to. Because that's really all that's different about them. And that disqualifies them from being "Czech"

    There are three words in Czech for Gypsies that I know of
    Gipsy - Which (I am told) they just use with each other
    Rom - Which (I am told) is for politicians to use. PC
    Cikán - Which (I am told) is what "Czech" people call them, but you're not supposed to say it to their face? It seems to me to be something along the lines of "Tinker"

    To be honest I can't recognize gypsies. I don't know if you've noticed but Czech people have dark skin too!
    I think sometimes gypsies wear clothes closer to what the lower classes wear at home, big earrings, often tracksuits etc. Otherwise I haven't an idea. So this whole thing seems so imaginary and ridiculous to me. No one will accept they're Czech people. There is no "They"

    I try really hard not to take this personally, but a family member is Gypsy and every time they say something horrible about them I don't only think about the other human beings out there that aren't being treated fairly but also about her. They're saying all these things about her. And I know her and I know she is intelligent and hard working and has gone through amazing hardships in her life and had to fight for everything she has.
  9. kibicz

    kibicz Well-Known Member

    My my, what a load of prejudice you have..

    Its not prejudice but experience. They´ve lived here for quite long time. Open your mind and your eyes. Its prejudice of many people from post-democratic bloc that "This is bad because it is bad and thats it, you rasist nazi!". Educated man shall never support opinion without free discussion.

    They are not "not doing well in school", they boycott it. Those who want to study university and have a good job usualy have to cut connections with their community in order to preserve what he/she reached. Or else his own community will "share" his money/property.. Its not white racism as you say but their own internal problem (we have to deal with..). There are few gypsies who managed it and noone have problem to accept him/her(except his community).

    Gypsy is English term unknown to Czechs and gypsies.(and find why are they called that way!)
    Cikán is correct term in many languages for this ethnic group. Ebven gypsies call that way themselves.
    (Olašský) Rom is correct name for certain part of previous ethnic group. Used as term for "Cikáni" its PC. Its not Czech word btw.

    I can recognize Cikán immediately.

    And they are not Czech/Slovak/German/Polish/Magiar etc. They are Gypsy where ever they live - its nothing wrong.

    Whats wrong about presenting one's opinion?! In Czech there are to words to describe "educated" - Vzdělaný - "about knowledge and ability to think" and "vychovaný" - "thought how to behave" - which meaning do you mean?
  10. ondras

    ondras Member

    Unfortunately, I have to agree with kibicz. I don't know what is the exact definition of the term "racism" but most of the "white" Czechs don't distrust Gypsies because of some prejudice but because of their own personal experience. I could tell you quite a few stories about them myself, but I don't want to be accused of spreading racism.

    And no, I don't think all Gypsies are violent thugs, I know that many of them are decent people but the sad fact is that a lot of them (especially the younger ones) are indeed involved in all kinds of criminal activity. It is no wonder, then, that people behave differently when they encounter a group of such people. You call it racism, but in my opinion it would be simply foolish not do so. I bet you would act differently too if you were for example in Harlem in the middle of the night. Does that mean that all inhabitants of Harlem are thieves? No, it simply means that some of them are, so you have to be more careful there. Does that mean that your are a racist? I don't think so.

    I know that the current situation is far from perfect but I honestly don't see any simple solution to this problem. I really don't know what else we ("the evil white majority") can do for them. The main problem is that Gypsies are usually unwilling to adapt to the local culture which is a reason why they are often viewed as "non-natives who don't belong here". That itself does not have to be that bad, but the problem is that their culture is vastly different from ours (or Western). In some aspects it is better than ours (taking care of family for example) but there are also things that are simply incompatible with our way of life. For example they don't view theft as something morally wrong. One would think that they would be able to adapt to the local cultural conditions after 500 years but they don't (and that is the problem of all Europeans countries that have some significant population of Gypsies.. remember the recent plan of the Italian government to fingerprint all Italian Gypsies? )

    I know that it is probably impossible to convince anyone who has not been living in CR for a longer time that we are not a bunch of racists but, well, at least I tried.
  11. Anna683

    Anna683 Well-Known Member

    Taking precautions around potential criminals is one thing; tarring all members of that racial group with the same brush is another. A person who knows that a lot of people in Harlem are criminals only sounds like a racist if they then claim that all blacks are thieves, criminals, a different breed, etc. That's what it sounds like when someone in CZ expresses these kinds of views about the entire gypsy population.
  12. Ctyri koruny

    Ctyri koruny Well-Known Member

    I've heard all this before.
    I've heard that almost line for line 3 or 4 times.
    I'm just reading a lot of "us" and "them" nonsense. As if they weren't part of your own culture again.
    It makes me so sad that you think you are being reasonable in saying that.
    Racisim must mean something different in Czech to in English,
    I put racism into the google translator and i get rasismus, but they cannot mean the same thing, because people constantly say things like that and say they are not racist statements; but they so clearly are that as an English Teacher it automatically strikes me as a lexical error / a false friend.

    As Anna said you go to an area with a high crime rate and you are careful, because it is a place where things happen. You don't identify the people themselves as being criminals.

    Gypsies are accused of behaving the same way as the lower class of every society. The difference is most societies realize that they are just that - part of their society.
    To me an educated person is someone who has read a lot of books and is aware of many opposing views and ideas and philosophies and is familiar with methods of critical thinking andargument.

    My friend grew up in Northern Ireland and she can recognize protestants immediately, as can most Northern Irish people, and Hutus and Tutsis could distinguish between each other too.
    What I'm saying is: that doesn't mean anything, it doesn't mean you're different from each other. To me you look the same, these little differences you have searched for and/or imagined.

    I am not prejudice! I would be so so happy if I met just one.. just ONE Czech person who didn't feel this way! But it seems to me impossible not to be racist in a sea of racism.

    A wolf is wandering and he comes across a lamb, and he decides not to eat it right a way but explain why
    and he says
    This is because you broke a fence last week
    and the lamb says
    I was not even born then!
    So he says
    This is because you ate my grass
    and the lamb says
    I have never eaten any grass in my life
    and he says.. well I am hungry and I will not go without food, even if you have seen through my lies. And he gobbels him up.

    And the moral is that bad people will always find an excuse to be bad.

    But if you think about it everyone sees things from there own perspective; here the wolf tried to make it seem resonable to the lamb, which was impossible, but from his own perspective it was always resonable. My students often explain their racisim to me, and oh it seems perfectly resonable and I can see why and how they would think such a thing. Except I can hold onto the golden rule that racisim is bad (though it's hard sometimes when everyone around you is telling you it's okay in certain curcumstances or against certain groups of people) and i just keep repeating that it's bad over and over to myself. And I nod my head at them and say “I never thought about it like that” or “ that is a problem” but it seems perfectly resonable to them... So how can I be annoyed at them when since they were children everyone around them has been telling them things like that, and no one ever gave them a look at that golden rule, it helps me ignore logic, because people really can use logic to make anything seem logical.
    You just have to hold on and think, no, they can't be theives, and if there are more gypsy theives it's because they are poorer and if they don't work it's because you won't give them jobs and if they don't go to school it's because your children call them names and if they travel around it's because everywhere they go people try to kill them and if they drink all day I wouldn't blame them! So there's my logic, but they can break that down, but I have this feeling inside of me that says no matter what you say i know you are wrong, and I wasn't born with this I was given this, I'm sure of it.
    So whatever you beleive, you beleive it for logical reasons, but underneath that there is a feeling which is unchanging, and that is the cultural thing. So how can i be mad at them when they think they are right. They wouldn't be nasty to someone if they didn't think they deserved it. What can I do? Just try and hold onto the core values no matter what changes on the surface. . . It's not my place to argue with the class about something like this, i just have to get them to practice talking, i'm a medium, what i think doesn't matter, but with my friends I can just quietly and unforcfully let them know how i feel. That's all i can do.

    There was this other story, I read it in a book of old Irish storys, there was this man, a druid i think, and he was the most intelligent man in all of ireland, he could argue anything. Once just for fun he convinced a man that black was white, and then once he'd done that he convinced him that white was black, so that in the end the man ended up not beleiving in colours at all. When Saint Patrick came to Ireland to tell us about Jesus he said - oh that's a load of rubbish - and argued so well and so logically that it was clear to anyone that listened that the Christian god and Jesus could never have existed, he convinced the High King of the land of this.
    And then St. Patrck or Mocaoimhog or someone or other came and talked to him and there was some kind of clever miracle that I forget, so he goes back to king and he says:
    I was wrong! I was wrong! You must tell your kingdom that god and jesus are real so that their souls will be saved!
    And the king said:
    But no! This is nonsense! You told me before there is no God! You said it yourself!
    And they argued into the night and the King gave back the druid all the same arguments he himself had supplied, and the druid could find no answer to them except to repeat that God was real.
    In the end the king finished by asking “How can there be a soul, when you cannot see it?”
    In desperation the druid asked: If i can show you a soul, will you consent?
    And the king scoffed, but agreed.
    With that the druid took the kings sord from it's hilt and cut his own body in half.
    Out of his body rose a beautfiul white butterfly and it flew away
    And from that day forth there has been christianity in Ireland.

    Of course I can see the original purpose of the story, promoting blind faith, (and I am not a religious person) but you know maybe it's not such a bad thing if it's blind faith in something that says: Don't fecking hurt anyone.

    Please don't take the last parts of my message as an example of proper English, i was pretty emotional when I wrote this.
    I hope that you guys can forgive me for this, it's just a cultural thing, I do love Czechs and the Czech Republic.
  13. kibicz

    kibicz Well-Known Member

    They are surely not.

    And what does it mean? That one nation is more valuable than other or just seeing that they are different and not pretending they are same? Its not the same meaning. Same with "xenophobia" - uncertain term that could fit anything you want and its given wrong conotation to discredit your oponent in discussion.
    Why? Certain amount or racism is as necessary as moderate tolerance. There is nothing wrong with each of them, but one should not overdo it.
    Interesting, Gypsies dont belong to Slavic/Celtic/German/Ugrofinic origin as you would expect from people of Central Europe. While Slovak/Pole Czech/Austrian/German are generaly not able to recognize each other, yet all of them are able to spot gypsi in no time.
    I am not prejudice!
    You are - remember what you said about racism;)

    Why Vietnamese are here for about 2 generaitons and noone gives a heck about them while Gypsies are here for several centuries and noone likes them? Not enough time to asimilate?

    And the more you want Czechs to be nice to gypsies and tolerate their behaviour the more we hate them. That reminds me elementary school - "civic lesson" or how to call it - Out teacher was explaining us that WE have to conform to THEM(and not vice versa as common Czech etiqutte of guest/host manners says) . I dont have to say what was reaction of whole class, do I?
  14. ondras

    ondras Member

    I consider them Czechs who are part of our society so they are indeed part of the culture of the Czech Republic. But you are right that I don't consider them as part of "our = white majority" culture (and they don't consider to be part of it themselves) but I think this is pretty normal. You can find groups of people with different cultural background in almost any bigger city .. e.g. all these china towns in many US cities).

    Then, please, do tell me what is your definition of "racism". I know that you will probably not believe me but I really couldn't care less about a color of their skin or any other "racial" feature. I simply don't like their culture (or to be more precise, I don't really care about their culture either .. as long as they are not trying to force it on me).

    Again, I'll probably not be politically correct, but a high crime rate does not happed by itself. Someone has to commit the crime. Of course I don't think every Gypsy I see is a criminal (far from that) but it is simply a fact that they are involved in criminal activity more frequently then others (again it is a FACT, not a racism). Let me use a different analogy. When I'm in some crowded place (a tightly packed tram, busy street, etc..) I usually behave more carefully (even when there are no gypsies around). Why? Because there is a higher chance that someone from the crowd might be a criminal, not because I think everyone is a criminal. It is the same with gypsies. When I see a larger group of them that looks suspiciously, I don't think they are criminals.. there is simply a higher chance that they might be (again .. this is a fact, not a racism).
    Are these cases really that different? Why is the former case normal while the later one is a "racism". (or maybe I'm just racist against everyone).
    I wish I could tell whether someone is a criminal or not simply by looking on him, but I can't do that so I have to rely on probability.

    No offense, but have you really seen a Gypsy? I mean seriously. I have to admit that I usually cannot tell a difference between a Czech and German (Briton, Irish, Pole, .. ) but to me, Gypsies really look quite different. Actually the major consensus is that they migrated here from India. (I know that Indians are pretty diverse but they have some features in common) .

    Some random image from google: (Hungarian gypsies):

    (and again, I don't really mind that they look different, actually I like this kind of diversity .. most of my friends are actually from India and China (I'm not living in the Czech Rep right now)).

    Believe me that I'm really not happy with the current situation myself and I wish we could live together more harmoniously but I don't know how.
  15. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

  16. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    They are not. That is the root of all the problems.

    What’s wrong with saying that a lot of Gypsies are involved in crime? Acknowledging a problem doesn’t make you racist, does it?

    That is not comparable and you must know it.

    Physical appearance of Gypsies is objectively distinctive. What’s wrong with acknowledging it? Don’t try to make us to deny the obvious.

    If you think that the Czech problems with Gypsies are rooted in physical differences, you are wrong. The adjective notoriously linked to the Gypsies is “nepřizpůsobivý”, that is “nonadaptive” or “maladjusted”.

    Look who is tarring all members of one group with the same brush. :D

    There is more fables. That one about the fox and the scorpion could be more fitting the Czech perspective. Your fable is about finding excuses for bad acts, but nobody here defends some wrongdoing. Czechs just feel like the fox and distrust the scorpion.

    To me, this sounds like a prejudiced belief of moral superiority.

    And indeed, racism is bad. But you should not apply your golden rule without thinking what actually is racism.

    Don’t blame logic.

    Look who is finding excuses now! :D
    Could you at least for a moment consider the possibility that the problem is, at least partly, on the Gypsy side?
    Otherwise you would be like the wifes who are constantly finding excuses for their violent husbands.
  17. Ctyri koruny

    Ctyri koruny Well-Known Member

    They are Czech citizens, and have been in the Czech Republic since around the 15th century, no matter how hard their fellow Czechs have been trying to wipe them out and/or make them leave.

    Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.
    Xenophobia is a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself

    They are not uncertain terms by any means. Any English-english dictionary you pick up will give you an exact definition of it.

    People are all the same.

    We disagree on this, there is no point in me repeating myself.
    I am not disputing that, I only said that to me you look the same, just as to you protestants and catholics look the same and to us Korean and Japanese people look the same.
    No, do I have a problem with you? No, I disagree with you, but I make no assumptions about your character. I am sure you are otherwise a good person. I also admit that I would feel the same way had I been raised here.
    I also don't assume when I meet a Czech person that they will be racist, just each time I am hurt again and again.
    That's nonsense! There is a huge amount of racism against Vietnamese and you know it!
    "They take our jobs!" "They sell poor quality goods!" "Every time I see them renting a shop and selling their crap I think, they are making all this money from us, that could be a Czech person. Why should they have so much when so many Czech people have nothing!? " (leftover communist attitude? I believe if you work hard you deserve what you get.) "They can't speak Czech properly! I can't understand them when they talk!" "Why don't they go to discos!?"
    (These are things I've heard, I would post the nice things, except I've never heard anything nice)
    Czech people and Vietnamese people have pretty much the same opportunities, the Vietnamese have these jobs and businesses because they earned them.
    I was at a concert before where the bass player was a Japanese-american, we were told people had shouted horrible things at him on the street because they thought he was Vietnamese, and he had only been there a few days!
    Maybe it is worse because I live in a smallish town.
    Again we disagree on this, I shouldn't repeat myself.

    They have their own culture just as African-Americans have, but they are still Americans and as such part of American culture and society. They are Americans and not a separate group that should be dealt with as "Black" although some of them are still poor, they should be seen as poor Americans, not poor black Americans. Color shouldn't be an issue, do you see what I'm saying?

    Repeating myself... They are more often poor.. or almost always poor I should say. In every country in the world the poorer part of the populace engage more in crime. And why are they poor? I've already spoken about this.
    I do the same with teenagers in tracksuits at home. The difference is I don't have a name for them and I don't claim that they are not Irish.

    Most of you guys have darker skin than Irish people (by default I mean, my parents have been mistaken for Turkish a few times at this point they're so tanned). A lot of Czech people have dark (by my standards) skin and brown eyes.
    Our school teacher did a survey in our class once and 29 out of 30 people had blue eyes, apart from Michael who had light brown eyes. . . so of course we teased him once this had been pointed out to us. :roll:
    There are a few red haired people here, less common than in Ireland, but certainly they look like they could be Irish.
    If light skin implies virtue and righteousness maybe we should all have an inferiority complex with the Sweeds... I guess we do!
    I'll admit the boys in that picture have darker skin, they look almost Indian, but the girls could easily be "white Czech". (apart from what they're wearing).

    :( no one does! But in my humble opinion the first step is to do away with the "us" and "them" mentality.
    You're probably familiar with the concept in sociology of circles

    (ignore the numbers, this is the only picture I could find.)
    No one is capable of caring about everyone on earth the same way they care about their mother, if we were then every time someone anywhere died we would be broken hearted, and we couldn't function as human beings, so we work inside of these circles, your family being the smallest circle and the people you care about the most. The more different someone is from our family the further out in the circles they end up. So it usually goes something like:

    The more different we think someone is from us the easier it is not to worry about them. This is part of how Hitler convinced so many people that "taking away" the gypsies and jews and homosexuals and mentally ill etc. etc. was such a good idea, by telling people that they weren't human, because no one in their right mind could have allowed that to happen to human beings!
    To me it seems every tiny step in this direction is bad. Even a small amount of racism is bad.
    Camus said "All I maintain is that on this earth their are pestilences and there are victims. And it's up to us, as far as possible, not to join forces with the pestilences. " (It's an amazing book, but you should at least read that page, he (or the translator) says it much better than I ever could.

    We disagree on this.
    I already spoke about this.
    It is comparable, it's even "defendable" the northern-Irish protestants are decedent from the English and the English are decedent from the Romans and The Anglo Saxons (mostly) who never came to Ireland. (Or the few that did never got a foothold, as far as I know there is no Historical consensus on this)
    I can't tell the difference between Protestants and Catholics, Gypsies and "White Czechs"... I can tell the difference between Japanese and Koreans though!

    To me you guys look the same, to a lot of people from different parts of the world this is true. Sorry if that offends you!
    I've already dealt with this. As I said the lower classes and poorer people in Ireland are indistinguishable. Therefore one of them can commit a crime and his brother can work in a bank and no one knows they are related. Every time one gypsy commits a crime everyone associates him with every other gypsy. People complain they don't work, yet if any of them applies for a job everyone has in the back of their minds every single crime they have ever heard of that was committed by a gypsy.

    I hope I don't have to type this out a third time.
    I'm not tarring you with any brush, you happily tar yourself. In any case I already defended myself on this point earlier in this post.
    I cannot reply to this without repeating things I said in earlier posts. So I direct you to the Camus book.
    I'm trying very hard not to be this way. As I said I have no problem with you guys just because you disagree with me. I hope that you feel the same way about me. I know if I grew up here I would feel the same way, I know opinions must surely be nurture over nature, so I can hardly take pride or feel morally superior because of geography.

    earlier in this post.

    Perhaps logic was the wrong word, perhaps what I meant was "Valid arguments" because you can make a valid argument for anything,

    "When it rains the ground gets wet. The ground is wet therefore it has been raining"
    So we know the first thing is true, but we know the second thing is nonsense because we know or can imagine every possible factor and 100 possible reasons the ground might be wet. We know a hell of a lot about ground and rain and street-cleaners and rivers bursting their banks etc. etc.
    But we aren't experts on human nature, we aren't experts in sociology, we haven't spoken and interviewed every "White Czech" and Gypsy in the land - So if someone gives us an argument which is equally logical to that sentence there, and we don't have the knowledge to back up the fact that it's wrong, of course, if we trust "logic", we will believe them.
    And don't think being Czech means you know more about this than I do, you know different things and have had different experiences, that's all. If you'd had mine you'd agree with me and if i'd had yours i'd agree with you, and no one can ever have both.
    Maybe it can't be real logic when we don't know everything about it, I don't know.
    Anyway my point is that when your argument fails you, you have to trust your "heart".
    (the word argument exists in Czech too but just in-case anyone isn't familiar with it in this context: (see validity also)
    I suppose you could call sociology "excuses" if you really like.

    Of course every human being has a choice in every single thing they do, but it was easy for me to go to school and college.. next to every thing in my life has come easy to me, all I had to do was work for it, that was all. How could I judge people who haven't grown up in an environment of equality and respect? Who were never told by their parents or society "you can be anything you want to be!"
    My choices came easy, optimism and ambition came easy, if no one around you ever
    America had the exact same problem with it's African community 50 to 100 years ago, none of them were achieving anything, loads of them were unemployed, and it has been a long slow process getting to the point where a black person can actually become president. I think the Czech Republic will get there too, I think your children will feel as I do!

    This is a ridiculous, unintelligent and insulting analogy and I will ignore it.
    That was lovely thanks for posting it!

    For the record I chose Gypsy and not Roma because that's what my cousin says herself.

    Anyway I'm finishing up, my words aren't going to change your minds, and yours certainly won't change mine if it hasn't been changed already by the things I've had to endure.
    The only thing that will change your minds is some profound real life experience.
    I had a German teacher who spent 3 years in Germany and came back hating Turkish people and saying they were "dirty", but in fairness she was an idiot and would have believed they could fly if enough people had told her so.

    I think i've made my feelings clear and you guys have certainly made yourselves clear.

Share This Page