glottal stop

Discussion in 'Grammar & Pronunciation' started by Qcumber, Jul 16, 2005.

  1. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Thanks. Yes I listen to teaching cds and imitate them. But sometimes, without the chance to converse much, mam pocit, ze by me mozna nikdo
    Je situace divny. Ale se stale snazim.
    Just like that cech I wrote above. I am not sure if it even made sense.
  2. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Neboj se. Je to všechno rozumet, i když rodný Čech tak přesně neříkáva.
  3. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    I want to thank everyone forr esponding to my posts.
    Very nice of you. :D
    I have a couple questions about cech grammar.

    Most verbs have aspects and therefore the future is made by using the present of the perfective.

    Other verbs do not have aspects and use the future conjugation of byt to designate future.

    Is there a pattern I am missing? A system, that would help me understand which kinds of verbs, fall into the seperate two categories?

    Also, some verbs end in hanet--like prehnat/prehanet-exaggerate
    the hnat ending will alway conjugate to
    Vam deuju predem.
  4. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    For questions on aspect, I'll refer you to a previous thread: Aspect: A Novel. You might also try using the "Search" feature using the keyword "aspect."

    As for the -hnat verbs, a quick look at Pravidla Českého Pravopisu indicates that you are correct for all the verbs listed there, except žehnat and rozžehnat.
  5. mravenec

    mravenec Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry to disappoint you. Glottal stops occur (in Czech) after a preposition preceding a vowel, which means the sound preceding it does not influence pronounciation. Thus, it's rather: [ˀo] than [sˀ]. Don't forget that the word followed by a preposition in Czech is not stressed! (this also means that the rules of (pro-/)re-gressive (de)voicing apply)

    s otcem ['sˀoctem]
    na ulici ['naˀulici] or even ['na ˀulici] if you wish
    (and, as already noticed:)
    s Petrem ['spetrem]
    s dobrým otcem ['zdobry:m 'otcem] (also in Czech generally)

    (I'm not using IPA here in case anyone wonders)

    Perhaps, you might consider the Czech glottal stops as post-glottalised as they may, through devoicing, affect the preceding sound as in
    z obchodu ['sˀopchodu] (the unvoiced glottal stop devoices the preposition)
    I wouldn't agree with you on that (the post-glottalised thesis) though.

    The right pronounciation is ['vparku]. (The word after the preposition does not begin with a vowel - ie no glottal stop)
    Rule to remember: glottal stop does not occur after a preposition but before a word which begins with a vowel when preceded by a preposition.
  6. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Mravenec, I adopted the phonetic point of view. You adopted that of morphology.

    Of course the glottal stop occurs automatically before the initial vowel and belongs to its syllable.

    Now if you consider the prepositional phrase s otcem ['sˀottsem], you must admit that you obtain a single phonetic word, ['sˀottsem], whose first syllable is ['sˀots], and the impression is that the initial consonant of this phonetic word is post-glottalized.
  7. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Why isn't it ['fparku]?
    The [p] in unvoiced so the /v/ should be devoiced into [f]. Is there a rule for this exception?
  8. mravenec

    mravenec Well-Known Member

    Ooops! I'm sorry, i was thinking too much about glottal stops and typed it as its written!.. :oops: :oops: Of course it should be:

    v parku ['fparku]

    (sorry for the confusion)
  9. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Thanks a lot, Mravenec.
  10. mravenec

    mravenec Well-Known Member

    Okay. First I thought you meant that Czech words after preposition were always post-glottalised. I seems what you mean is that a consonant followed by a glottal stop (and then a vowel) in a syllable is quite unusual (which is probably true). I'm not sure, however, that I fully understand what you mean by post-glottalised.

    What about:
    od Evy ['ˀotˀevy],
    would [tˀ] also be considered as post-glottalised?

    How would you define post-glottal (is it the glottal stop in relation to preceding/following consonants/vowels within a syllable)?
  11. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Yes, Mravenec, at the phonetic level, the consonant [tˀ] in the syllable[tˀe] of od Evy ['ˀotˀevy] is post-glottalized. This means that a glottal stop is heard after the [t].

    In some languages, but I don't remember which ones (sorry) there are phonemes that are post-glottalized consonants.

    It is not the case of Czech where the post-glottalized consonants represented here are not phonemes, but coincidental sequences of sounds due to morpho-phonemic rules.

    P.S. Frankly, my ear is not yet trained enough to Czech to be able to detect them at the moment, so I have to rely on the transcriptions and comments you and your worthy colleagues have posted so far. Thanks a lot.
  12. mravenec

    mravenec Well-Known Member

    You're probably thinking of Danish and some dialects of British English where [ʔð] and [ʔk] occurs.

    Perhaps you (or anyone else who has a clue) could help me with sorting out the coronal consonats in Czech. Usually Czech stops, nasals and affrikates are described as denti-alveolar (which means they are pronounced with a laminal stop at the dental (and mostly simultaniously alveolar) position). Sometimes these sounds are described as alveolar (which obviously would be a contradiction in terms as denti-alveolars must be dental). Now, the question is: are the Czech stops /t/, /d/, the nasal /n/ and the affrikative /ts/ dental (or denti-alveolar if you prefer) or are they (or some of them) purely alveolars?

    I would be very greatful for an answer to this question.
  13. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Definitely not, these would be regarded as pre-glottalized, not post-glottalized. By the way, could you please give examples illustrating these two sequences?

    As regards you question, Mravenec, I'm sorry I can't help you as my pronunciation of Czech is far from being satisfactory. My impression is that these sounds are dentals, not alveolars.
  14. mravenec

    mravenec Well-Known Member

    Ah, of course you're right. Examples: danish [støʔð] (a) push, english [pæʔk] pack. It seems /ʔð/ and /ʔk/ can be treated as phonemes.

    That's my impression too, but in Czech phonetics it seems no distinction is made between dentals and alveolars, which is rather confusing.

    It also seems that Czech stops are not aspriated (just like french and most latin languages) and not as in English (and most Germanic languages) which are generally aspirated. Any comment?
  15. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    In my opinion, if they can be contrasted with other sounds, they are phonemes; otherwise they are phones, and these phones are the mere allophones of the main phones that are the standard realizations of the corresponding phonemes.

    No, to my ear, they are not "aspirated" ("expirated") as English /p/ in pie [pʰaɪ] Vs spy [spaɪ], etc.
  16. mravenec

    mravenec Well-Known Member

    Apparently, I'm a bit sloppy with phonetic terminology... You're absolutely right that the British English [ʔk] is an allophone to the phoneme /k/. With the danish [ʔð] I'm less sure. I believe the glottal stop regularly occurs before ð in standard Danish, in which case it could be treated as a phoneme. (Obviously, this isn't much help as I don't know if [ð] occurs without a glottal stop; it might then even contrast with [ʔð]...) :roll:

    Thanks for your opinion on aspiration and dental/alveolar! :D

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