Discussion in 'Grammar & Pronunciation' started by Qcumber, Nov 6, 2005.

  1. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Often a single nominal form corresponds to two or more cases, e.g.
    vlak "train" : nominative, accusative
    vlaku "train" : genitive, dative
    I suppose Czech school kids have to do some parsing. Are there exercices in which they are asked to tell which case it is?
  2. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    Definitely - parsing homework and tests are a nightmare for most sixth- up to ninth-graders (and their parents, too).
  3. Qcumber

    Qcumber Well-Known Member

    Hi, Jana. :D
    A nightmare, but also a good training in the logic of the language.
  4. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    I agree completely; unfortunately not many teachers at Czech elementary schools try to explain any logical principles of language to their pupils. Mostly, it is just drill (and consequently a nightmare).
  5. gementricxs

    gementricxs Well-Known Member

    Yeah, it was nightmare. But also another nightmare was to learn "vyjmenovaná slova" - special words where is "y".
  6. Ladis

    Ladis Well-Known Member

    Do you all Czechs here remember all "vyjmenovana slova" still? :twisted:
  7. Luciaviolin

    Luciaviolin Member

    I don't think that I could recite them any more (by, být, bydlet, obyvatel..?). But what gives me real trouble at the moment is deciding on "mě or mně" either as words by themselves or in words such as proměny, zapoměla (or zapomněla?). I forgot what the rules are. :roll:
  8. Ladis

    Ladis Well-Known Member

    Mně vs. mě:
    • mně = 3rd (ke mně) and 6th case (o mně)
    • mě = the rest (viděl jsi mě (4th case), ...)
    Pomnka, domnka, zapomla etc. :arrow: if there is "pomně" it's always "mně" from the word "pomni"
  9. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    What does it mean: "the rest"?

    The best method is (for the Czechs, of course):

    mně - (corresponds) tobě, sobě
    mě - tě, se
    mne - tebe, sebe
    mi - ti, si
    mnou - tebou, sebou

    Common mistakes:

    pro mě, ode mě, etc. instead of pro mne, ode mne as we say pro tebe, od tebe, etc.

    also tam neviděl! is not wholly correct (Tebe tam neviděl! -> Mne tam neviděl!)
  10. Ladis

    Ladis Well-Known Member

    Interesting, I've never seen that with "mne - tebe, sebe" etc. :) "the rest" = other cases (except of the 3rd and 6th one). Why is "pro mě" a mistake? It's the 4th case thus "mě". And of course, every "mě" can be replaced with "mne".
  11. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    I understand what you have meant with "the rest", but it is not correct.

    Pro mě is not correct as we cannot analogically say pro se (but some odd fishes say pro tě). The short forms (mě, tě, se, mi, ti, si) are not allowed after prepositions in (hyper-)correct Czech.
  12. Ladis

    Ladis Well-Known Member

    Ok ok, I don't use "hyper-correct" Czech and haven't seen anybody around me who does :) Interesting, where did you learn this? What I remember, I have nothing like this in the basic & grammar school (maybe I slept during it :lol:).
  13. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    Už ani nevím. Myslel jsem si, že analogie mezi tvary osobních zájmen , ty a se je všeobecně známá.

    Každopádně funguje. 8)
  14. Ladis

    Ladis Well-Known Member

    Ja si to zas pamatuju podle toho padu - 3. a 6. "mně", ostatni "mě" s tim, ze jdou nahradit za "mne" :)
  15. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    I have noticed that the ČT newsreaders use the correct Czech. They usually say for example:

    oni vědí (they know)
    oni přicházejí (they come)
    oni ztrácejí (they lose)
    oni smějí
    oni umějí

    On the other side all Nova newsreaders (not only the Afro-Czech) systematically say:

    oni ví (they knows)
    oni přichází (they comes)
    oni ztrácí (they loses)
    oni smí
    oni umí

    Which makes me furious. :evil:
  16. Ladis

    Ladis Well-Known Member

    I'm not such linguist like you boys, I haven't seen the difference until now :shock:. Interesting, maybe our childrens will learn the both ways as correct :roll:
  17. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    I think it's the best method for foreigners, too. That's how I was taught. Having said that, however, I realize that I commonly make the "pro mě" mistake. I must have picked it up somewhere from a native (either that or I just confuse it with Russian :? ) and never realized it until now. Thanks, Zeisig!

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