1=20 ? 2=40 ?

Discussion in 'General Language' started by doman, Mar 2, 2007.

  1. doman

    doman Well-Known Member

    I used to use the numbers "jedny, dvoje..." for bought cigarettes only. Thats why I didnt cleared much about it. Jedna cigareta - a cigarette/ jedny cigarety - a packet of cigarettes/ dvoje cigarety - two packets of cigarettes... There are always 20 cigarettes in a packet...So, could "jedny" be 20?
  2. Karel_lerak

    Karel_lerak Well-Known Member

    There may be also 10 cigarettes in a packet, then "jedny" = 10 :)

    jedny, dvoje - we are speaking about packages (or sets of things) or about such things as in Czech:

    "jména pomnožná" (plurale tantum)
    scissors - jedny, dvoje nůžky
    pants - kalhoty
    glasses - brýle
    door - dveře
    gate - vrata

    jedny, dvoje, troje, čtvery, patery, šestery, etc.
  3. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Yes, as Karel mentions, there's a special class of Czech nouns, which are plural, yet are counted in groups (e.g. pairs, packages, etc.):
    These are among the more common. I guess these are plural in their most basic form, since there are two pant legs in a pair of pants, two lenses in a pair of glasses, two blades on a pair of scissors, etc. As far as I understand, one can not say, for example, jedna kalhota, or if it is possible, it would refer probably to a single pant leg.

    The form jedny, dvoje cigarety is the same in principle, although by using it this way, it counts packages of cigarettes, rather than individual cigarettes.
  4. doman

    doman Well-Known Member

    Thanks Karle! But I am still not sure... Can I say "Desatery ruce" ?

    Because Ctrvery cigarety, patery cigarety... :D
  5. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Hmm... not sure, but I think it would be understood as meaning 10 pair of arms, meaning from ten people.
  6. Karel_lerak

    Karel_lerak Well-Known Member

    Yes, but not only, you can also say "desatero rukou"

    In both cases it is together 20.
    Means 10 sets of hands. One set of hands = usually 2 8)
  7. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Well... if the necessity comes up, you can, but a native speaker would rather say "dvacet rukou"... "desatery ruce" emphasises that you refer to them in pairs (yes, pluralia tanta emphasise that you are refering to it in some higher quantity as a basic unit - "jedny cigarety" - the basic unit is a packet of cigarettes, "jedny ruce" - the basic unit is a pair of hands... but sincerely, you will rather come to speak about singulary hands than about pairs of them, but yes, it is completely possible, yet the usage is somehow... limited).
  8. Karel_lerak

    Karel_lerak Well-Known Member

    You can, but in a rather special situation as at the tailor. They even sometimes use the term "kalhota" for pair of pants ... 8)
  9. doman

    doman Well-Known Member

    Jedna kalhodta ? We should call it "Sukne".

    I should had learnt it better :(
  10. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    pluralia tantum
  11. doman

    doman Well-Known Member

    :D OK ! I give up ! Pluralia ... I guess - Plural, but Tanta/tantum.... :D :oops:
  12. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    plurale tantum - means merely plural in Latin

    and the Latin plural of plurale tantum is pluralia tantum :)

    (tantum is indeclinable)
  13. doman

    doman Well-Known Member

    Tks ! Our language's script is borowed from Latin, but I am Latin illiterated :D
  14. vturchi

    vturchi Well-Known Member

    Hi Zeisig,

    you're right:
    the Latin plural of plurale tantum is pluralia tantum,
    but really "plurale tantum" means not exactly merely "plural" in Latin,
    it means "only plural". Tantum is indeclinable because, in this case, is an adverb (only).
    It distinguish words used only (or mainly) in plural form: pants, scissors...dvere, kalhoty...
  15. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    I think Zeisig meant "merely plural", not merely "plural" (note placement of quotation marks, or in his original post, the italics). "Merely" means basically the same as "only."
  16. vturchi

    vturchi Well-Known Member

    Maybe you're right: I thought "merely plural" as "simply plural" that's not the correct translation, but as you said probably Zeisig meant "merely" as "only", exclusively"
  17. Zeisig

    Zeisig Well-Known Member

    I meant "solely plural". These damned synonyms! :)
  18. vturchi

    vturchi Well-Known Member

    Sorry Cajzl!!
    It was my fault, I didn't understand well!! :oops:
  19. Jazyk

    Jazyk Member

    Ahoj. To je můj první příspěvek tady. Doufám, že budete moci mi pomoci. Chtěl jsem zjistit skloňování čísel jako dvoje, troje, atd., protože má učebnice o tom nic neříká. Po mnoha práci jsem to našel:

    Znamená to, že zbytek skloňování je?

    první pád: dvoje, patery
    druhý pád: dvojího, paterého
    třetí pád: dvojímu, paterému
    čtvrtý pád: dvoje, patery
    pátý pád: dvoje, patery
    šestý pád: dvojím, paterém
    sedmý pád: dvojím, paterým

    Děkuji mockrát za Vaši pomoc.

  20. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Well, those plurals are mainly used in nominative and accusative, where there is no necessity to figure out appropriate forms.

    your genitive, dative, locative and instrumental cases (dvojího, paterého) are wrong because they do not decline the numeral itself (dvoje, patery) but rather an adjective derived from them ("dvojí, paterý" very roughly corresponding to English "double" and "quintuple").

    I am not sure myself about the proper forms... what seems to me the most comprehensible form (while not necessarily standard) is "dvojech, dvojem" for genitive and locative respectively and "dvojech, dvojema" for locative and intrumental respectively.

    For "patery", I think the other cases (except accusative) are "patero" (I judge from the introductory phrase in many fairy tales "za devatero horami""

    However - you are not very wrong. It is probable that in a necessity of using a plurale tantum, it could in fact be in a form of a derivate adjective, but the adjective has to be in accord with the noun in case, number and gender (which your "dvojího, paterého" is not as it is for singular masculine... for word "dveře" - which is grammaticaly feminine plurale tantum - it could not be used).

    1) dvoje dveře
    2) *(bez) dvojech dveří
    3) *(k) dvojem dveřím
    4) (vidím) dvoje dveře
    5) ----
    6) *(o) dvojech dveřích
    7) *(za) dvojema dveřmi

    forms with asterisk are speculative and perhaps grammatically incorrect but sometimes can be heard in colloquial... and you may also hear in those cases a general numeral (*bez dvou dveří, ke třem dveřím,...)

    1) patery dveře
    2) (bez) patero dveří
    3) (k) patero dveřím
    4) (vidím) patery dveře
    5) ----
    6) (o) patero dveřích
    7) (za) patero dveřmi (or "za devatero horami")

    "patero" (or "devatero") itself can be a substantive meaning "quintet" (or "nonet" - generally, without any musical connotation)

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