can someone look at this ...

Discussion in 'Vocabulary & Translation Help' started by Eric79PL, Nov 6, 2009.

  1. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Sorry.....meant 'čtvrtořady'

    prvo, druho, třetí, čtvrtořady......from Wer's post

    dostojíš svému slovu......I wonder what the infinitive of that verb is 'dostat',

    Maybe it is an archaic way of conjugating 'dostat'?

    Ebonics.....worst idea in the attempt to dum down english in school. Essentially giving up on the idea that proper english can be taught.
  2. Alexx

    Alexx Well-Known Member

    Infinitive is "dostát" :)

    sg: dostojím, dostojíš, dostojí
    pl: dostojíme, dostojíte, dostojí

    3rd case is used with this werb (dostát komu/čemu)

    ocenit koho/co
    cenit si koho/čeho
  3. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Yes, it’s correct Common Czech.

    Actually, it’s the other way. Standard Czech was created by some people who had problems with the real Czech. They created an artificial rectification of the Czech for practical reasons (unification, standardization…), not because they though that somebody’s Czech was mistaken or sounded stupid.

    Common Czech emerged sometimes in the 15th century, today’s Standard Czech is artificial product of the 19th century and it is an umpteenth standard which coexists with the Common Czech.

    And some British think that Americans sound stupid, and some Americans are disgusted with the way the British speak and write. So both British and Americans are mistaken. :roll:

    “Krásná města” is Standard Czech, “krásný města” is Common Czech and “krásné města” is a Moravian colloquial variant. Both the Common Czech and Moravian variant evolved spontaneously centuries before the Standard Czech was artificially created. The form of the Standard Czech was chosen as a compromise and it is based on the common original form.

    Similarly, Common Czech form is “zejtra”, a Moravian variant is “zajtra”. The Standard Czech form “zítra” is fabrication by the creators of the Standard Czech who thought that the form “zejtra” evolved from “zítra” (like “mlejn” from “mlýn”) while in fact it evolved from “zajtra” (like “vejce” from “vajce”).

    Nobody disputes that they should be taught to use the Standard Czech. After all, it is the only living standard and the only form of the Czech which is shared by all people with Czech school education. But in order to understand the Czech people they should be aware of the most common features of the colloquial Czech, that is mainly of the Common Czech which is spoken by about 70 % of Czechs.

    No, the form “krásný fotky” is product of the natural systematic evolution of the Common Czech, while “krásní fotky” is an unsystematic mistake.

    Ebonics is rather an urban slang, argot, or a pidgin form of English, isn’t it? A colloquial English which devolved from the proper English.

    Colloquial Czech, on the other hand, is a spoken language which persisted in spite of the efforts to raise up the Czech language. It’s the traditional “wild” form of the language.

    Only the forms “prvořadý” and “druhořadý” are common. The following regular forms are occasional.

    The infinitive is “dostát”, it’s prefixed perfective version of the very basic verb “stát” (= to stay) and it shares the same conjugation. “Dostát” means “to stop staying”. “Dostát něčemu” is somehow figurative expression for “to stay firmly on something until it is fulfilled” or simply “to fulfil something”:

    dostát svému slibu/slovu = to fulfil/keep a promise
    (Is it possible to use “word” for a promise in English?)

    dostát svému přesvědčení = to keep/prove one’s conviction

    dostát své pověsti = to prove one’s reputation, to live up to one’s reputation

    dostát požadavkům = to meet obligation

    dostát přísaze = to be true to one’s oath
  4. jrjaks

    jrjaks Member

    Wer's post is one of the most informative posts I've read. I've often wondered, and been confused about the relationships between the colloquial and standard Czech languages, (not through familiarity with them myself, but from the standpoint of someone trying to learn the language enough to be conversant). Very, very interesting.
  5. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    I thought that wer's post was really interesting too.
    Trying to create a standard czech out of an already established czech.
    Probably not an easy task.

    Yes, everyone should keep their word......Do what they say they are going to do.....uphold/fullfill their promise.

    Dostal jsem své slibu.....I kept my promise....Kept my word

    Aha, I think I see it now....dostat.....dostojíš

    but, wouldn't it be imperative? rozkazovaci?

    Především, drahý synu, kamkoli, kam jdeš, buď k sobě spolehlivý, dostoj svém slibům. Nezapomeň, že můžuv slovo je všechno. Tím, lidé soudí povahu člověku.
  6. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Now that I think about it....I think Shakespeare put the emphasis on to THINE maybe, především, buď věrný k sám sobě.
  7. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    wer - you are educated in linguistics?

    I've never thought of it this way, but when I think about it now, it sounds logical that the standard czech evolved from the common language and not the other way around. ... %C5%A1tina

    This, however, doesn't change anything on the fact, that I'm still not so keen on using "grammatically correct" together with "krásný fotky", regardless whether "... in the common czech" is added or not.
    The czech internet is flooded with bad grammar of young people (many of them for example don't mind any difference between my and mi, two words with a completely different meaning) and if they saw someone saying that the common language is grammatically correct, while these mistakes are really common around them....

    Why is the first version Common Czech, while the second one is just Moravian-specific? Is it based on how many people use them? Is there any lexicon of Common Czech? I'd say the first one is Bohemia-specific and the second one Moravia-specific (I don't have any reason not to belive you in this case), so what makes one of them grammatically correct based on the Common Czech grammar? Isn't one common somewhere and the other one common elsewhere?

    I've never heard anyone use this. (Not talking about people around the borders who use Slovak or Polish mishmashes, their language can hardly be called Czech.)
  8. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    Oh, now I know why I couldn't decipher the word :)

    You should avoid "čtvrtořadý", it's really not common, you'd be even risking Czech people wouldn't understand you ;)

    It is used sometimes, though. I found this in Google and I think it's a good example of when some people would use this word:

    Je třeba použít kabel s impedancí 75 Ohmů a kvalita stínění má až druhořadý (popř. třetiřadý, čtvrtořadý ...) význam.

    But I don't think many people would say (nothing is impossible, however :wink: ):

    Je třeba použít kabel s impedancí 75 Ohmů a kvalita stínění má až čtvrtořadý význam.
  9. GlennInFlorida

    GlennInFlorida Well-Known Member

    Yes, true - which is why so many people here are opposed to teaching it or considering it a legitimate language form.

    It is, however, easy to conjugate:

    I be goin'
    You be goin'
    He, She, It be goin'
  10. Eric79PL

    Eric79PL Member

    me neither :lol: definitely not polish mishmash, let me tell you this :lol: :lol: :lol: sounds more slovak to me, I may be wrong.
  11. Alexx

    Alexx Well-Known Member

    You are not wrong, it is slovak. I am familiar with czech-polish mishmash if someone would like to call it like that (we call it "Ponašymu" - "Our way") and tomorrow would be "jutro" (same as in polish).

    Funny article about this mishmash you can find in here. Please do not take it seriously :)
  12. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    Yes, this one is Slovak of course. I was talking in general, that's why I included also Polish ;)
  13. TomKQT

    TomKQT Well-Known Member

    IMHO it's 100 % serious and 100 % true :lol: :lol:
  14. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Partly, I’m educated in related fields of mathematics.

    That’s most likely because you think that the only correct Czech is the Standard Czech you were taught at school. But the Standard Czech is intended to be used only for specific purposes, not in common life.

    The Internet is flooded with anything. :D

    I agree with you that a lot of improper Czech is used in the Internet, nevertheless, improper needn’t be always incorrect in general.

    I don’t defend misspellings, lack of knowledge, deliberate mistakes etc. I more or less defend the way Czechs were taught to speak by their parents.

    Common Czech is a linguistic term, a settled name, a label, for one particular form of Czech. It is not the only common life Czech.

    When I speak about “a Moravian variant” I speak about one of many variants used in Moravia. Czech language in Moravia is much more diverse than in Bohemia. Common Czech is rooted in Bohemia, but spoken even in some parts of Moravia.

    There is no prescription for the Common Czech, but a lot of descriptive papers on it.

    The border dialects could be classified as Czech, Slovak or Polish (or Moravian) based on some concrete isogloss. But the choice of the isogloss is not settled, so there is no settled border between the languages. The border is by no means identical with the political borders.
    Nevertheless, the form “zajtra” is present in many Moravian dialects which are distinctly non-Slovak.
    And yes, Slovak uses that form as well.

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