"Naturalis(z)ovat" soudruha Gottwalda...

Discussion in 'Vocabulary & Translation Help' started by Charta77, Nov 28, 2005.

  1. Charta77

    Charta77 Member

    Ahoj vsichni. Mel bych 2 otazky:

    1) What means "naturalisovat" (now "naturalizovat") in such a sentence: "Dnes by byla vhodna prílezitost dohodu aspon na urcitou dobu naturalisovat, aby nesli prímo proti rezimu" (Cepicka, 1949).

    2) This ambiguos sentence is from soudruh Gottwald, 1949, instead: "Jsou tam nekteré velmi drzé pozadavky (...). Ideologie nepratelske kresťanství se nemají sírit."
    How do you translate "Ideologie nepratelske kresťanství se nemají sírit"? (I don't understand the grammatical function of the words)

    Dekuji - Angelo

  2. Doc Odine

    Doc Odine Member

    the first sentence sounds like nonsense to me. Maybe it means something, that I cant understand because I dont remember that times (1949 - I was born more than 30 years later).

    The second sentence can be rewritten like this: "Ideologie, ktere jsou nepratelske krestanstvi, se nemaji sirit" <- it looks more understandable this way.
  3. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    "Naturalizovat" means "to accept new citizenship", according to "Ottův slovník naučný" (=encyclopedia) there's no other meanig.

    I think in this sentence it was incorrectly used in the meanning "to accept".
  4. Ladis

    Ladis Well-Known Member

    I think:
    1. something like: "Today it would be a good opportunity to naturalize the agreement (= to make it better for our situation) for some time, they not to go against the regime."
    2. something like: "There are some insolent requirements (...) The "hostile Christianity" 's ideology should not be propagated."
    However I don't remember those times (I was born in 1982 :)) and I'am surprised you read things like this :shock:
  5. Charta77

    Charta77 Member

    Ladisovi: dik, ale "ideologie..." neni zde zadni genitiv, jinak bylo by to asi "ideologie nepratelskeho krest'anstvi", ze? Myslim si, ze Doc Odine ma pravdu. (Skousim se prave prelozit tento zapis z roku 1949 do italstinu... co mam s tim delat??!!)
  6. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    This is a guess, but perhaps it is an appositive phrase. In English, such phrases are commonly separated by commas (e.g., The book, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, was written by Jules Verne.), but I have noticed that such phrases are sometimes written in Slavic languages without the use of commas.
  7. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Sova, I disagree.

    This is not apposition. It's adjective. Maybe you and Charta77 are confused because of word order. Adjectiv is usally before noun but in old czech it was after noun. There are same relicts of this old form and this is one of them (adjective connected with object is often after noun).

    "Ideologie nepřátelské (vůči) křesťanství" is also possible to rewrite as "(vůči) křesťanství nepřátelské ideologie".

    Ideologie (subject; noun, nominative, plural)
    nepřátelské (attribute; adjective, nominative, plural)
    křesťanství (object; noun, dative, singular)

    "Ideologie nepřátelské (vůči) křesťanství"
    "Ideologies which are against christianity"
    "Ideologies facing christianity" (my best english translation)
    OR (maybe)
    "Antichristian ideologies" (no "satanic ideologies" :D )
  8. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    One of those unfortunate (and frustrating) times in Czech grammar, where the declension of the nouns and adjectives is supposed to give the context of how the words are used. Yet the word "křesťanství" has a declension that is the same in 6 of the 7 cases. Combine that with a noun (ideologie) that has the same singular and plural forms, an adjective (nepřátelské), which has the same form in the neuter nominative and the feminine plural, and flexible word order, and you're bound to get confusion. *Whew*

    I assume, based on wer's analysis, that "křesťanství" is supposed to be the dative form, while "ideologie" and "nepřátelské" are plural nominative. Thanks for the clarification, wer.

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