Přes zelené žitečko

Discussion in 'Vocabulary & Translation Help' started by DanielZ, Jul 4, 2007.

  1. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Yes, you are close. But again, this is a folklore song in a dialect (see the “by jsi” instead of standard “bys”). It’s peculiar to discuss the standard Czech in folklore songs. I suppose you can easily google versions with both “mně” and “mi”.
    This thread. The lyrics (a variant with “mi”) here, for example.
  2. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Thanks for link wer..
    I understand about grammar in songs. Often gramatical liberties are taken
    so that the words flow with the music.
  3. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    Ty by jsi mně musel kolíbku dělati, do dřeva netíti - You would have to make a cradle for me (i.e. for my child) without cutting wood...
  4. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Some, but not all by far.

    Point taken. Thanks for the explanation.
  5. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Another problem is that you are discussing a SONG!
    The songs (as poetry) do not necessarily respect all rules of grammar and prosody of a language. The most important part is rhythm I think:

    Ty by jsi mi musel
    Ty by jsi mně musel

    (accents are in bold)
    There is one more accent in the second version, or it can be pronounced (more naturally):

    Ty by jsi mně musel

    See the difference? One accented, two unaccented; one accented, two unaccented - typical "daktyl" verse in which all the song is written (with some irregularities).

    In conclusion, I do not think that it is the matter of the sens (mně - to me and not anyone else, i.e. strong fidelity and things) but rather to the rhythm and the pleasing sound in general.

    Always remember - poetry and songs are not very good examples of a language. Of course, they are told to be the best of the language ad they are, but not as a represantative sample for analysis because standard word order, standard and most used words, standard pronunciation and prosody... all those things are neglected or even intentionally violated, because the poetry is supposed to sound originally, unconventionally, otherwise it would be boring!
  6. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

  7. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Sorry, just a typing error, I will correct it (before that post, I had written to the topic concerning the reflexives and I was probably atuned to it still, so I confused the forms as "by jsi" is per se ungramamtical, it should always be "bys", but here, for the purpose of rhythm and from the reason that ordinary people do not care much about the grammar, it is used otherwise).

    Thanks for correction, watchy person :wink:
  8. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Pod našimi okny
    teče vodička
    napoj mi má milá
    mého koníčka.

    Já ho nenapojím
    já se koně bojím
    já se koní bojím,
    že jsem maličká.

    Je to hezké ale jsem zvědavý, proč zpiváč použuje 'bojím se koně', a potom v příštím řadě 'bojím se koní'?
    I am afraid of the horse, and then, I am afraid of horses?

    Teče vodička, studené a rychle
    dám trochu do sklenice
    a ted je na hezké poličce
    ještě je studené
    ani rychle ani teče

    To má smysl?
    Rýmuje se nebo je to nerýmované?
  9. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Probably a typing error? I know it only with "já se koně bojím" twice, but it has that meaning, you mentioned.
    Já se koně bojím - I am affraid of (the) horse (that I am supposed to give water to)
    Já se koní bojím - I am affraid if horses (in general)

    Not really... does not seems very sensible nor is the rhyme very... elaborate. The main problem with sense is probably the bad grammar:

    Teče vodička (noun, feminine) , studené (adj., neuter) a rychle (adverb)
    ještě je studené (what is "studené"? there is no neuter noun)
    ani rychle ani teče (nor fast nor pours? what?:))

    And the rhyme... well, Czech rhyme rises, when there is a correct rhythm (i.e.: the accents are laid out similarly) and if the last syllable is the same and the vowel of the last but one is of the same timbre.
    this does rhyme
    The second accent in the word "nenapojím" is secondary accent - the accent in Czech word is on the first syllable and then on every even syllable, there is a secondary accent, which is weaker and not so prosodically important, but there it can be emphasised, so that a rhyme emerges.

    On the other hand:
    I did not marked all the accents (especially on the beginings) but I hope you see that there is no possibility for a rhyme to emerge...
    "sklen-ice" and "pol-ičce" cannot be rhymed:)
  10. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Díky Eleshare. To je zajímavé. Je to nepřiznučné slabiky, které určuji zde poesia rýmuje nebo nerýmuje.
    They unstressed syllable can poetically be stressed in order to make a rythym with normally stressed syllables in other words.

    Voda hlučně teče
    na makočky
    ží tu ží tam
    kočky nemaplan

    Rymuje? Probably not...I am sure I am oversimplifying.

    This is how I meant the other poem to go

    The water flows
    cold and fast
    I'll put some in a glass
    and now it's on my (nice,favorite,special) shelf
    it's still cold
    but it's neither fast nor does it flow.

    Hmmmm....awkward....Znilo to líp česky.

    Please tell me why poličce and sklenice cannot rhyme.
    They are both three syllables, and are stressed on first syllable.
  11. Jana

    Jana Well-Known Member

    You can rhyme police - sklenice or poličce - skleničce (just try to separate the syllables, pronounce the words slowly and you will find it out)... :)
  12. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    aha..think I got it

    It is the č sound that throws the ryme off.(ruins the rhyme)

    Na poličce
    je kočička
    lenoch spí
    možná sní
  13. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    the first two verses do not rhyme, but they have the same rhythm, so they could rhyme.

    This is more complicated matter of prosody:

    a syllable has some parts:
    the core
    the coda
    the initial
    the final

    The core is that what creates a syllable. Without a core, there is no syllable. Every other part is unnecessary. Most frequently it is a full vowel. In Czech, it can be a vowel, a diphtong or a syllabic R, L, M.
    In following syllables the highlightened part is the syllabic core:

    má, máš, krk, mou, že, a, až, kde, skrz

    The coda is a consonantic cluster (or a single consonant) that follows the syllabic core. There are syllables, that do not have it. Syllables with coda are called "closed syllables", syllables withoud a coda are "open syllables".
    In following syllables the coda is highlightened, if nothing is in bold, then the the syllable has no coda:
    má, máš, krk, mou, že, a, až, kde, skrz

    The initial is a consonantic cluster that precedes the core. It is not obligatory, but in Czech the syllable even if they do not commence with a consonant tend to have the initial in form of a glottal stop.
    In the following syllables, the initial is highlightened. The glottal stop is signified by a question mark:
    má, máš, krk, mou, že, ?a, ?až, kde, skrz

    The final, also called "the rhyme", is the part of a syllable created by the core and the coda (if there is any). The name "rhyme" comes from the fact that if two syllables have the same final, they rhyme... But it only comes for syllables in Czech, the rhyme in poetry is more complicated.
    In the following syllables, the final is highlitened:
    má, máš, krk, mou, že, a, , kde, skrz

    So we can construct a schema, where the brackets signify the unnecessary parts:
    ..(initial) + final

    Thus, the rhyme in poetry occurs, if the rhythms (i.e. the accents) are the same (or at least similar, exact rhythm is not sometimes necessary)
    if the last syllables at the end of the verses and the finals of the last but one are the same (or similar... sometimes the length can be different but it requires a sense for it).

    -syllables that rhyme
    máš, dáš, váš, záš,....
    už, muž, kuš, suš, ruš...

    -words that rhyme
    ale, vale, hale, male,...
    police, sklenice, velice,...
    krk, mrk, brk, vrk, cvrk,...
  14. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    I think the common English terminology is:

    the nucleus/peak
    the coda
    the onset
    the rime/rhyme (the latter is sometimes used only for the rhyme in poetry)

    The initial and the final are rather typographic terms, aren’t?
  15. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    It is possible. I know only the Czech terminology... but still I hope it is comprehensible.
  16. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Díky za vysvětlání mi to Eleshare.
    I do not know a whole lot about making poems. I'm noot familiar with some of those terms. But I understand the part about the rythym
    Časty slabiky, to je dost složité téma.
    Sevřím tohle informace. Graci.

    Kdybych byl dnes bohatý
    koupil bych si tři kravaty
    jeden modrá, a dvě žlůté
    pak by ti přinesl hezké růže.
  17. Karel_lerak

    Karel_lerak Well-Known Member

    Kdybych byl dnes bohatý
    koupil bych si kravaty
    jednu ze lnu a dvě z kůže,
    tobě bych pak přines' růže. 8) 8)
  18. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    Good one except... the rhythm...
    I completely forgot to mention one very very very important part of the rhythm. THE NUMBER OF SYLLABLES MUST BE THE SAME!
    in your case:

    kdy.bych.byl.dnes.bo.ha.tý - 7 syllables
    kou.pil.bych.si.tři.kra.va.ty - 8 syllables

    So this is the reason of Karel's correction to
    "Koupil bych si kravaty" (or possible "Koupil bych tři kravaty")

    And here, you can see well, that the last syllables differ in length, but they do rhyme anyway.

    This is completely out.
    - first verse has 8 syllables with regular accent; the second has 10 syllables (pak.bych.ti.při.ne.sl.hez.ké.rů.že)
    - there are four accents in both verses but they do not correspond
    - "žluté" (not even "žlůté":)) does not rhyme with "růže", because the last syllable is different (remember, the last syllable has to be always the same - not regarding to length, see your first two verses)

    hence correction to:

    jednu ze lnu, a dvě z kůže
    tobych pak přines' růže
  19. scrimshaw

    scrimshaw Well-Known Member

    Zas ležím tu dřív než svitání
    nepotřebuji i otevřit oči
    zas ona je tam, moc nechtěný
    těžky, jak pořád, na myšlenký

    Házu se tu šíleně hodiny
    nechci už vůbec nemyslet na ni
    ráno pojd', toto už nemůžu
    už nemůžu potrvat, nelžu.


    Kdybych byl dnes bohaty
    koupil bych si kravaty
    jednu ze lnu, a dvě z kůže
    tobě bych pak přines' růže

    Děkuji moc. Chápu to líp.

    The cadence, rythym should match
    the number of syllables should match
    and the last syllable should sound very similar.
  20. Eleshar

    Eleshar Well-Known Member

    RHYTHM: the cadence (accents) and the number of syllables have to match
    RHYME: the final (or syllabic rime) of the last but on syllable and the complete last syllable (except length) have to match

    So... your first poem in your last post... does not rhyme at all. Try reading once again my post about the parts of syllable. I understand that it is very difficult - this concerns mainly the phonetics and prosody and perhaps the problem lies in your pronunciation or something...

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