Přes zelené žitečko

Yes, you are close. But again, this is a folklore song in a dialect (see the “by jsi” instead of standard “bys”). It’s peculiar to discuss the standard Czech in folklore songs. I suppose you can easily google versions with both “mně” and “mi”.

This thread. The lyrics (a variant with “mi”) here, for example.

 

Thanks for link wer..
I understand about grammar in songs. Often gramatical liberties are taken
so that the words flow with the music.

 

Ty by jsi mně musel kolíbku dělati, do dřeva netíti - You would have to make a cradle for me (i.e. for my child) without cutting wood...

 

Some, but not all by far.

Point taken. Thanks for the explanation.

 

Another problem is that you are discussing a SONG!
The songs (as poetry) do not necessarily respect all rules of grammar and prosody of a language. The most important part is rhythm I think:

Ty by jsi mi musel
Ty by jsi mně musel

(accents are in bold)
There is one more accent in the second version, or it can be pronounced (more naturally):

Ty by jsi mně musel

See the difference? One accented, two unaccented; one accented, two unaccented - typical "daktyl" verse in which all the song is written (with some irregularities).

In conclusion, I do not think that it is the matter of the sens (mně - to me and not anyone else, i.e. strong fidelity and things) but rather to the rhythm and the pleasing sound in general.

Always remember - poetry and songs are not very good examples of a language. Of course, they are told to be the best of the language ad they are, but not as a represantative sample for analysis because standard word order, standard and most used words, standard pronunciation and prosody... all those things are neglected or even intentionally violated, because the poetry is supposed to sound originally, unconventionally, otherwise it would be boring!

 

Why?

 

Sorry, just a typing error, I will correct it (before that post, I had written to the topic concerning the reflexives and I was probably atuned to it still, so I confused the forms as "by jsi" is per se ungramamtical, it should always be "bys", but here, for the purpose of rhythm and from the reason that ordinary people do not care much about the grammar, it is used otherwise).

Thanks for correction, watchy person :wink:

 

Pod našimi okny
teče vodička
napoj mi má milá
mého koníčka.

Já ho nenapojím
já se koně bojím
já se koní bojím,
že jsem maličká.

Je to hezké ale jsem zvědavý, proč zpiváč použuje 'bojím se koně', a potom v příštím řadě 'bojím se koní'?
I am afraid of the horse, and then, I am afraid of horses?

Teče vodička, studené a rychle
dám trochu do sklenice
a ted je na hezké poličce
ještě je studené
ani rychle ani teče

To má smysl?
Rýmuje se nebo je to nerýmované?

 

Probably a typing error? I know it only with "já se koně bojím" twice, but it has that meaning, you mentioned.
Já se koně bojím - I am affraid of (the) horse (that I am supposed to give water to)
Já se koní bojím - I am affraid if horses (in general)

Not really... does not seems very sensible nor is the rhyme very... elaborate. The main problem with sense is probably the bad grammar:

Teče vodička (noun, feminine) , studené (adj., neuter) a rychle (adverb)
...
...
ještě je studené (what is "studené"? there is no neuter noun)
ani rychle ani teče (nor fast nor pours? what?)

And the rhyme... well, Czech rhyme rises, when there is a correct rhythm (i.e.: the accents are laid out similarly) and if the last syllable is the same and the vowel of the last but one is of the same timbre.
e.g.:

this does rhyme

The second accent in the word "nenapojím" is secondary accent - the accent in Czech word is on the first syllable and then on every even syllable, there is a secondary accent, which is weaker and not so prosodically important, but there it can be emphasised, so that a rhyme emerges.

On the other hand:

I did not marked all the accents (especially on the beginings) but I hope you see that there is no possibility for a rhyme to emerge...
"sklen-ice" and "pol-ičce" cannot be rhymed

 

Díky Eleshare. To je zajímavé. Je to nepřiznučné slabiky, které určuji zde poesia rýmuje nebo nerýmuje.
They unstressed syllable can poetically be stressed in order to make a rythym with normally stressed syllables in other words.

Voda hlučně teče
na mé malé kočky
běží tu běží tam
kočky už nemají plan

Rymuje? Probably not...I am sure I am oversimplifying.

This is how I meant the other poem to go

The water flows
cold and fast
I'll put some in a glass
and now it's on my (nice,favorite,special) shelf
it's still cold
but it's neither fast nor does it flow.

Hmmmm....awkward....Znilo to líp česky.

Please tell me why poličce and sklenice cannot rhyme.
They are both three syllables, and are stressed on first syllable.

 

You can rhyme police - sklenice or poličce - skleničce (just try to separate the syllables, pronounce the words slowly and you will find it out)...

 

aha..think I got it

It is the č sound that throws the ryme off.(ruins the rhyme)

Na poličce
je kočička
lenoch spí
možná sní

 

the first two verses do not rhyme, but they have the same rhythm, so they could rhyme.

This is more complicated matter of prosody:

a syllable has some parts:
the core
the coda
the initial
the final

The core is that what creates a syllable. Without a core, there is no syllable. Every other part is unnecessary. Most frequently it is a full vowel. In Czech, it can be a vowel, a diphtong or a syllabic R, L, M.
In following syllables the highlightened part is the syllabic core:

má, máš, krk, mou, že, a, až, kde, skrz

The coda is a consonantic cluster (or a single consonant) that follows the syllabic core. There are syllables, that do not have it. Syllables with coda are called "closed syllables", syllables withoud a coda are "open syllables".
In following syllables the coda is highlightened, if nothing is in bold, then the the syllable has no coda:
má, máš, krk, mou, že, a, až, kde, skrz

The initial is a consonantic cluster that precedes the core. It is not obligatory, but in Czech the syllable even if they do not commence with a consonant tend to have the initial in form of a glottal stop.
In the following syllables, the initial is highlightened. The glottal stop is signified by a question mark:
má, máš, krk, mou, že, ?a, ?až, kde, skrz

The final, also called "the rhyme", is the part of a syllable created by the core and the coda (if there is any). The name "rhyme" comes from the fact that if two syllables have the same final, they rhyme... But it only comes for syllables in Czech, the rhyme in poetry is more complicated.
In the following syllables, the final is highlitened:
má, máš, krk, mou, že, a, až, kde, skrz

So we can construct a schema, where the brackets signify the unnecessary parts:
......syllable
...../.........\
..(initial) + final
.............../.....\
............core+(coda)

Thus, the rhyme in poetry occurs, if the rhythms (i.e. the accents) are the same (or at least similar, exact rhythm is not sometimes necessary)
and
if the last syllables at the end of the verses and the finals of the last but one are the same (or similar... sometimes the length can be different but it requires a sense for it).

Examples:
-syllables that rhyme
máš, dáš, váš, záš,....
už, muž, kuš, suš, ruš...

-words that rhyme
ale, vale, hale, male,...
police, sklenice, velice,...
krk, mrk, brk, vrk, cvrk,...

 

I think the common English terminology is:

the nucleus/peak
the coda
the onset
the rime/rhyme (the latter is sometimes used only for the rhyme in poetry)

The initial and the final are rather typographic terms, aren’t?

 

It is possible. I know only the Czech terminology... but still I hope it is comprehensible.

 

Díky za vysvětlání mi to Eleshare.
I do not know a whole lot about making poems. I'm noot familiar with some of those terms. But I understand the part about the rythym
Časty slabiky, to je dost složité téma.
Sevřím tohle informace. Graci.

Kdybych byl dnes bohatý
koupil bych si tři kravaty
jeden modrá, a dvě žlůté
pak by ti přinesl hezké růže.

 

Kdybych byl dnes bohatý
koupil bych si kravaty
jednu ze lnu a dvě z kůže,
tobě bych pak přines' růže. 8) 8)

 

Good one except... the rhythm...
I completely forgot to mention one very very very important part of the rhythm. THE NUMBER OF SYLLABLES MUST BE THE SAME!
in your case:

kdy.bych.byl.dnes.bo.ha.tý - 7 syllables
kou.pil.bych.si.tři.kra.va.ty - 8 syllables

So this is the reason of Karel's correction to
"Koupil bych si kravaty" (or possible "Koupil bych tři kravaty")

And here, you can see well, that the last syllables differ in length, but they do rhyme anyway.

This is completely out.
Rhythm:
- first verse has 8 syllables with regular accent; the second has 10 syllables (pak.bych.ti.při.ne.sl.hez.ké.rů.že)
- there are four accents in both verses but they do not correspond
Rhyme:
- "žluté" (not even "žlůté") does not rhyme with "růže", because the last syllable is different (remember, the last syllable has to be always the same - not regarding to length, see your first two verses)

hence correction to:

jednu ze lnu, a dvě z kůže
tobě bych pak přines' růže

 

Zas ležím tu dřív než svitání
nepotřebuji i otevřit oči
zas ona je tam, moc nechtěný
těžky, jak pořád, na myšlenký

Házu se tu šíleně hodiny
nechci už vůbec nemyslet na ni
ráno pojd', toto už nemůžu
už nemůžu potrvat, nelžu.


.............

Kdybych byl dnes bohaty
koupil bych si kravaty
jednu ze lnu, a dvě z kůže
tobě bych pak přines' růže

Děkuji moc. Chápu to líp.

The cadence, rythym should match
the number of syllables should match
and the last syllable should sound very similar.

 

Yes,
RHYTHM: the cadence (accents) and the number of syllables have to match
RHYME: the final (or syllabic rime) of the last but on syllable and the complete last syllable (except length) have to match

So... your first poem in your last post... does not rhyme at all. Try reading once again my post about the parts of syllable. I understand that it is very difficult - this concerns mainly the phonetics and prosody and perhaps the problem lies in your pronunciation or something...