Russian tanks enter South Ossetia

Discussion in 'Central & Eastern Europe' started by Alan_Scotland, Aug 8, 2008.

  1. Alan_Scotland

    Alan_Scotland Member

    Georgian President Mikhail Saakasvili, who has called on reservists to sign up for duty, said "150 Russian tanks, armoured personnel carriers and other vehicles" had entered South Ossetia.

    "This is a clear intrusion on another country's territory. We have Russian tanks on our territory, jets on our territory in broad daylight," Reuters new agency quoted him as saying.

    "I must also tell you that Georgian forces have downed two Russian jet fighters over Georgia's territory."

    It appears to have happened under the cover of the Olympic Games opening ceremony.
  2. Irena M

    Irena M Well-Known Member

    This happened just today? :shock:
  3. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    The region is troubled for some time. Russia has been trying to increase its influence in Ossetta in similar way as it is trying to do it in other regions of former USSR.

    Ethnic tensions between Ossetians and Georgians in South Ossetia in last years left several hundreds of dead and wounded and created a large tide of refugees on the both sides.

    Authoritative rule of Mikheil Saakashvili, who supresses freedom of speech and political opposition with force doesn't help either. Yet USA supports him.
  4. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    What I can't understand is why Russia granted Russian citizenship to South Ossetians when it has been a part of the Georgian Republic (and Georgian SSR before that) for decades. Hence, of course, Russia sees this as protecting their own citizens, who interestingly enough want to be independent of both Russia and Georgia.

    And yes, I agree that the US has no business there.
  5. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    That's because Russians ask "Why not?" instead. Russian foreign policy is primitively imperialistic for centuries.

    I hope you don't think this is the real motivation of Russia, that's just a formal excuse for invasion into another sovereign country.

    I don't think so. I agree it is useless to escalate the conflict, but the West should support Georgia diplomatically, economically and with the supplies of weapons.

    I know there are tendencies in the American administrative to exchange "Georgia for Iran", but I think the better and more pragmatical exchange is "Georgia for Tibet". (Well, the best exchange was "Kosovo for Georgia", but that's passé.)
  6. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Good answer! :lol:

    Of course not, or at least not at a political level. What the common Russian thinks, who knows?

    Perhaps, although the region they are fighting over doesn't really want either Georgian or Russian rule, so I'd consider that an internal Georgian affair (as far as I understand, when Georgia split from Russia, the internationally-recognized boundaries of Georgia included South Ossetia).
    I don't really want to escalate American-Russian tensions any more that they are already over the European missile defense proposal.

    Mainly, I hope that the US doesn't try to recognize the sovereignty of South Ossetia during this mess. Definitely, the US and other countries should push hard for an immediate cease fire and a return to negotiations in the region.
  7. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    It seems obvious from Russian forums and blogs - Russia is great and West is evil. Georgia was puppet of USA.

    Some examples here:

    What is interesting is that South Ossetia is mostly rocky wasteland, where lived only about 70 000 pople.
  8. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

  9. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    They think they were great empire in the past, but the empire collapsed because of the conspiracy of the West. They think they have good leader now (Putin), not anymore the puppets of the West (Yeltsin). They think they are going to be a great empire again and are eager to demonstrate the power of "new" Russia. In short, the state of Russian minds is similar to that one of poor Germans before the WWII. Just read the Russian blogs as eso suggested, or even the English blogs, they are now flooded by comments of Russians.

    The region is too small to become an independent state and it is clearly within the natural borders of Georgia - it is separated from Russia (and North Ossetia) by mountains.

    Recognized by Russia itself!!

    Ah, the Russian authorities are not scared at all by that proposal, they just play a theatre for the poor Russians and the useful idiots in Europe. The real disputes are somewhere else.

    Nor later.

    Actually, I think US should be not vocal about this conflict. It is better to help France discreetly (= to press it into the right stances :wink:), since France is eager to play a big role here. Czech Republic could be quite helpful here because it succeeds the current French presidentship.
    This is the best variant, it could give a vent to the Russian anti-American passions, decoy Sárközy from his Mediterranean adventures to the real problems of Europe and undermine the Russian-German alliance.

    But it is vitally important for Georgia from the defensive perspective. The Russians want to break through the natural frontiers of Georgia. Without that region, Georgia is as defenseless as Czechoslovakia after the Munich dictate.

    And they are right! But it is interesting they don't mention we export arms to Russia as well. :wink:
    The massive supplies of Georgia with arms and ammunition is one of the best things we have done in the last years. Russia is especially pissed off because it is mostly Russian made equipment we have from the Cold War era.

    No, that's Transnistria or Belarus.
  10. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    It's frightening that many Russians believe that former Soviet satellites are very ungrateful when they refused to stay in Russian "family". They see 1968 invasion into CSSR as great assistance, because "you had contrarevolution there"

    One my /Czech/ friend said: The Russian will praise eternal all-Slavic brotherhood, then he will drink vodka with you, then he will get drunk and then he will smash you face, because you aren't brotherly enough.

    Maybe Ukraine?
  11. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    Yes as a place of disputes, but not as a target of "peackeeping" since Ukraine is of different boxing weight.
  12. eso

    eso Well-Known Member

    Ukraine is investigating claims that Russia has been distributing passports in the port of Sevastopol, raising fears that the Kremlin could be stoking separatist sentiment in the Crimea as a prelude to possible military intervention. ... rimea.html
  13. pedro1974

    pedro1974 Well-Known Member

    i was just wondering why russia didn't recognize "kosovo" defending the natural and legal RIGHTS of serbia (and I agrre with this position) and few months later russia fight for the s.ossetia indipendence, breaking the natural and territorial international rights of georgia?

    why russia supports s.ossetia freedom and doesn't allow the cecenia's freedom?
  14. Sova

    Sova Well-Known Member

    Why not? After all, I suppose there are soldiers, who'd rather shoot themselves in the foot that shoot the enemy ...
  15. MK

    MK Well-Known Member

    South Ossetians count themselves to be just Ossetians and North Ossetia (larger then South Ossetia) is autonomy in Russian Federation. When would be both regions united it will become part of Russia. Hence Russia count all Ossetians rightfull citizens of RF.

    It is revenge for Kosovo, of course. :D

    In fact - South Ossetians have the same right to be independent country like Georgia have. Such thing Russian do not like to hear cause it means that also autonomies inside RF have the same right. By this reason Russsia originally did not recgonized South Ossetia. When Georgia invaded South Ossetia and was wiped out by Russians thereafter then RF catched the chance to weaken Georgia by freeing Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Russians argue it by genocide and leading case Kosovo, they will newer argue it by right of Soviet autonomies to become independent countries. Hence it does not apply to "Cecnya cause".

    My opinion is that RF recognized South Ossetia because of big pressure from US. It is just way how Russians thinks. If it was no pressure then Russian would newer go so far. Anyway what could Russians leaders lose. The pressure was already in place and acting this way is in accordance with Russian nature. Hence they ppl would like them and international pressure should hardly be larger.
  16. BMoody

    BMoody Well-Known Member

    Hey guys,

    I think Russia also wanted to screw up the Euro/American natural gas pipeline coming out of the Caspian and flowing through Georgia to Turkey. I think Russia wants to hold Europe hostage through energy so they can reassert themselves as dominant.

    The EU couldn't put sanctions on Russia if it wanted to. Everyone's natural gas would dry up.

    I'm curious, does anyone know if natural gas prices went up since Georgia happened? That would mean increased profits for Russian companies of course.
  17. wer

    wer Well-Known Member

    No, it would not. Russia is more dependent on European money than Europe on Russian supplies. Consider the Western Europe survived the Cold War without Russian supplies.

    No, the price dropped down because of lower demand on western markets affected by the crisis of American banks. Putin was forced to support the Russian banks with the money he planned to use for arming.

Share This Page